The Sports-India Community

I think Sanjay is referring amateur club play. Typically, USTA rankings were used there and those were also pretty mysterious in how it is computed with doubles and singles credit and it can also be manipulated by who you played.

At the pro level, the women and men don't play each other, and presumably their ratings don't overlap...

For a change, Sumit played doubles too this week and came up with an upset win against second seeds in first round.

At Lyon Challenger 100, France (Clay)

[R1] Sumit Nagal (IND) / Francisco Cerundolo (ARG) d. (2) Evan King (USA) / Hunter Reese (USA) 46 75 17-15

Next,

[QF] Sumit Nagal (IND) / Francisco Cerundolo (ARG) vs. Pablo Cuveas (URU) / Martin Cuveas (URU)

Do Indian tennis players hold some sort of record for three set results? I see very few straight set wins for them although there are some straight set losses. Almost everyone manages to win one set but end up losing—singles or doubles.

He lost in doubles QF.

At Lyon Challenger 100, France (Clay)

[QF] Sumit Nagal (IND) / Francisco Cerundolo (ARG) l. Pablo Cuveas (URU) / Martin Cuveas (URU) 26 36

Sumit will be off no another big Challeger 125 in France next week. Even tougher field than this week as Sumit is 12th in the entry list.

suresh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:48 am ^^ Why should one be comparing men's UTR with women's UTR ratings? Isn't it like comparing ATP rankings with WTA rankings?

Because that is what they claim. That it is a universal ranking that rates all players on the same scale.

https://www.universaltennis.com/how-utr-works

UTR Powered by Oracle is a global rating system that promotes fair and competitive play across the tennis world. All players, regardless of age, gender, geography or skill level, are rated on the same scale between 1 and 16.50 based on actual match results.

suresh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:48 am ^^ Why should one be comparing men's UTR with women's UTR ratings? Isn't it like comparing ATP rankings with WTA rankings?

There’s more opportunities for level based play. It doesn’t really matter whether you play a boy or girl. UTR matches up quite well. This is just a few years old and over time, UTRs are going to get more accurate as it gains more adoption. ITF is also working on a World Number, which sounds similar to UTR.

gbelday wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:07 pm There’s more opportunities for level based play. It doesn’t really matter whether you play a boy or girl. UTR matches up quite well. This is just a few years old and over time, UTRs are going to get more accurate as it gains more adoption. ITF is also working on a World Number, which sounds similar to UTR.

But as long an men/boys and women/girls do not play each other regularly, it is natural that their UTR values evolve separately. It doesn't matter how awesome the algorithm is as it takes inputs from real matches to work out the change in UTR.

Admin - These UTR related posts may have to be moved out of this thread.

Suresh, beyond a certain age group in NJ, men and women don’t play against each other regularly.

In some weekend UTR tournaments, there are usually more than 50 registrants. The boys and girls are grouped together (4 per group) based on UTR and usually the results are pretty close and in line with their UTR ratings. Gives the tournament directors more options and the girls a chance to play different competition than they are usually used to.

Just to give some examples, the top boys in NJ are 13 utr and above and there are no girls that have such high utr (including the women pros from this area such as Christina Michael, Kristie Ahn or Bernarda Pera who are in the 11-12 range). I saw Samir beat up Christina many times (in line with their UTR). Rohan competes well and sometimes beats Kristie Ahn in tie breaks and practice sets (11.11 vs 11.52). All I am saying is that UTR is a very good predictor of results irrespective of gender, age and it is here to stay etc.

Thanks Gautam (gbelday) for the details -- it is really nice that girls and boys do play against each other.

Sumit is 8th seed in this big French challenger ... He is facing a Frenchman Lamasine in the first round ... In the doubles, he and his Spanish partner Taberner r facing the 2nd seeds.

At € 132K Open Pays d'aix CEPAC, Aix-en-Provence, France

[R1] (8) Sumit Nagal (IND,144) vs Tristan Lamasine (FRA,252)

Doubles
[R1] Sumit Nagal (IND)/ Carlos Taberner (ESP) vs (2) Fernando Romboli (BRA)/ David Vega Hernandez (ESP)

Sumit loses to a 252 ranked player in 3 sets and the 16 score in the final set is more alarming,shouldn't he be winning these matches, especially when he goes out of the way to choose a particular playing surface.

Tristan Lamasine had a UTR of 14.58 vs Sumit Nagal`s UTR 14.51. Would be good to look at both ATP, UTR as we make those calls at least till the rankings are back to the normal 12-month window.

But, how is Lamasine UTR ahead of Sumit ? I was being curious and computed the ATP points earned by Sumit and Lamasine only in last year i.e after resumption of tennis post covid break in September. Sumit is way ahead with 233 points earned from 21 tournaments while Lamasine has 115 points earned from 22 tournaments. So,in a normal year Sumit would still be 70-80 spots ahead of Lamasine although both would be ranked much lower than their current ATP ranking.

What does UTR consider for Lamasime to be rated ahead of Sumit ?

Sumit was up 4-1 in the second set tiebreak. He was in excellent position to win this match. We can talk about UTR ratings, ATP ratings, etc., but Sumit has to close out these type of matches. As is usually the case, he fades in the final set when losing the second set. Wonder if he will ever enter the top 100.

Sumit has a tendency to fall away in the last set if things don't go his way. Points to a issue of mental strength I think. He needs to learn to hang in there when things get tough. His rankings are sliding and he is now India No 2.