DLF cup (Ind, WI and AUS)

[puneets]

The official reason given was that Yuvi was down with fever.

RPSingh is a much improved bowler..and there's not a whole lot of difference between him and Sreesanth. Both have played the same number of matches ...Sreesanth has a poor economy (5.58) and compared to RPs (5.07). Sreesanth's average is also pretty poor (34) compared to RPs (29).
It is not fair to compare the stats so early in their careers.

[PKBasu]

With the World Cup just half a year away, it's time to stop experimenting. We need to settle on at least the 13 players who will take us to the World Cup. Kumble needs to be in the mix, and it's time to bring back the other left-handed veteran into the XIV. Hopefully the Challenger series next week will be used to properly select the side for the next half year. Raina, I'm afraid, has failed to live up to the India cup for now, although he is definitely a terrific prospect for the future. Sehwag should be given a proper run as opener for the next 3-4 matches, but then dropped from the ODI XI if he still fails -- or kept on strictly as an all-rounder. If Sehwag isn't opening, Dhoni should. That is the position he played most of his domestic one-day cricket in.

[PKBasu]

I watched a replay of the Indian innings on TV (but couldn't see myself on screen  !). I noted that Dhoni was given out off a no-ball (which still doesn't excuse the atrocious stroke, since there was no no-ball called; square-cutting a fast-bowler from an unbalanced position is a recipe for disaster). Bhajji was clearly not out, although Dravid was clearly out (although it didn't look that way to the naked-eye, hawkeye confirmed that it was an excellent umpiring decision).

[S_K_S]

Cricinfo mentioned Bhajji messing up a run out opportunity that would have put Australia 6 down as being one of the key moment.

Our poor record in key matches has a lot to do with not being able to play error free cricket when the pressure is on. This is when the over exposure in the media does not help as it contributes to the fear of failure which in turn restricts performance.

[PKBasu]

The Aussie fielding was impeccable, and this gives them a great advantage over other sides. India have closed the gap, but ultimately batting and bowling win matches, and our batting has been shocking in ODIs over the last 8 matches or so, with Dravid surprisingly failing in all of them.

[puneets]

Yes, Bhajji messed up an easy runout chance...things could have been a lot different.
But inspite of that, we should have easily chased 214....with the likes of Sachin, Dravid, Sehwag, Dhoni, Kaif and Raina. Our batsman let us down.

Look at the series averages for India:

Sachin came after 6 months..and scored more runs than Dravid+Sehwag+Raina+Dhoni+(Kaif+Yuvraj) combined!!

Code: Select all

Name                Mat    I  NO  Runs   HS     Ave

MS Dhoni              4    3   0    43   23   14.33  
R Dravid              4    4   0    39   26    9.75  
M Kaif                2    2   1    22   21   22.00  
D Mongia              1    1   1    63   63*    -    
IK Pathan             2    2   0    64   64   32.00  
SK Raina              4    4   1    72   34   24.00  
V Sehwag              4    4   0    28   10    7.00  
SR Tendulkar          4    4   1   222  141*  74.00  
Yuvraj Singh          2    2   0     0    0    0.00   

[PKBasu]

Hey what the heck -- I will start something off .. Once again, when it mattered, Sachin FAILED.

Jay

Puneet is absolutely right that Sachin had a superb comeback to the side in this tournament, although both his good innings were against the Windies, and he failed in both matches against Australia.

But, yes, Jay is completely correct that Sachin usually fails when it really matters to the side. I would prefer not to take the discussion forward on this, because we have discussed it quite thoroughly before -- and it is now a settled matter on this forum that Sachin has never played a match-winning test innings for India in his long career (the closest being the century in Madras in 2001 against Australia in the first innings, but that triumph was clearly more attributable to Harbhajan's bowling) and he has certainly not played a match-winning innings in the fourth innings of a test match. (He has, however, in his early career, occasionally played great match-saving innings).
Although he is probably India's greatest ODI batsman (marginally ahead of Ganguly on that score) and one of the 3-4 greatest ODI batsmen of all time, Sachin has not been the match-winner in any of the most consequential matches -- the SF or final of a world-wide tournament like the World Cup or Champions Trophy, and in most major Tri-Series events. (One exception that comes to mind is the Hero Cup against South Africa -- or was it the Windies? -- when he bowled that brilliant final over; interestingly though he did little with the bat in the SF or final of that tournament too).
I often travel long distances to watch some of these performances, and inevitably Sachin fails. I flew into Johannesburg on the morning of  the last World Cup final, I flew to Calcutta to watch the India-Australia tri-series final later that year, etc., and Sachin always fails to deliver. The one exception was the Asia Cup final in January 1991 against Sri Lanka, when he got 53 off 70 balls (although, this being Calcutta, Azhar was the MoM with 54 off 39 balls -- and Manjrekar got 75 not out -- as India chased 205 to win off 45 overs). Sri Lanka weren't then the potent force they were to become, and the victory was considered inevitable. I was in India for just about a fortnight (while still a graduate student in the US) during which I had to arrange and attend my belated wedding receptions in Delhi and Calcutta. But I still wanted to see Sachin bat, and hence took a day off to go watch him at Eden. I liked what I saw, but was slightly underwhelmed on the occasion (relative to what I had been led to expect). Sadly, he has inevitably failed in all the other consequential matches I have travelled long distances to watch. The best innings I saw him play live was the 45 he made against Australia in the Tri-Series final in Calcutta in 2003 (Ganguly was banned from the final!) but India failed to chase a modest target of 236 despite skipper Dravid's 49. He also made a few good runs in the first match of the 1999 World Cup at Hove (Sussex) but was first out with the score around 40, and Ganguly went onto top-score with a fine 97...we had our chances in that match, until Klusener (at no. 9 or 10~!) came in to smash Agarkar around.  

[PKBasu]

The West Indies led by Brian Lara are going to be very serious contenders in the 2007 World Cup at home. Lara just set a wonderful trap for Symonds, who was threatening to take the match away from them: knowing that Sarwan had got him once in the Windies bowling wide outside the leg stump, he brought Sarwan on -- and the inevitable happened. But in Bradshaw the Windies have a disciplined opening bowler (who can bat a bit) and two superb all-rounders in Bravo and Gayle. With Lara, Chanderpaul and Sarwan (apart from the two batting all-rounders) the Windies are really a handful now. And will be even more of a handful if Marlon Samuels can begin to live upto his potential.

[puneets]

PKB - You couldn't have been more wrong.

In the grand-finals, Sachin has scored at an avg of 48 runs (3 runs more than his career avg)

In 5+ team tournaments (grand finals), Sachin's avg is 47.8 (again better than his career avg).


btw Sourav's average (in grand finals) is 37 (3 runs below his career avg).

[PKBasu]

Yep, I've seen that statistic in a Cricinfo report. Of course, that depends on what you define as a grand final...You're determined to make this a Sachin vs. Sourav comparison. In my view, Sachin is definitely much the better batsman, both in tests and ODIs. In ODIs, though, Sourav is almost as good as Sachin -- and for a 3-4 year period, was the bigger performer when it mattered.

Let me just run you through the complete list of consequential matches (from Cricinfo's list of multi-team ODI tournaments played by India) and compare the two:

World Cup final 2003 - Sachin 4, Sourav 24 (both failed)
WC 03 Semifinal - Sachin 83, Sourav 111 (Man of the Match Sourav)
key Super Six (QF) fixture - Sachin 5, Sourav 107* (MoM Sourav)

ICC Champions Trophy 2002 (each match is consequential in a KO tourney)
vs England (QF) - Sourav 117* (109 balls) Sachin 9* (off 20) - Sehwag MoM
SF (against RSA) both failed (Sourav 13, Sachin 16)

2002 Natwest (Tri-series incl SL and Eng) final: Sourav 60 (off 43 balls), Sachin 14 (off 19) India win, MoM Kaif 87 (off 75 balls)
2001 Standard Bank triseries (with RSA, Ken) both failed in the final: Sourav 9 off 17, Sachin 17 off 42 balls
2001 Coca Cola triseries (Ind, WI, Zim) both failed in the final: Sourav 28 (off 32 balls), Sachin 0 (off 4 balls) India lost by 16 chasing 291

ICC Champions (Knock-out) Trophy 2000: final (vs NZ): Sourav 117 (off 130), Sachin 69 (off 83). Cairns MoM as NZ win with 2 balls to spare
Semifinal (versus South Africa): Sourav 141* (off 142 balls), Sachin 39 (off 50) - Man of the Match Ganguly

Coca-Cola Singapore Challenge 1999: final (vs WI) Sachin 0, Sourav 46 (West Indies win by 4 wkts as Powell shines)
1999 Sharjah Cup and Carlton&United tri-series in Australia: India fail to make final
1999 Asia Cup and Aiwa Cup (triseries in SL with Aus): India fail to make final
1999 Toronto series vs West Indies (and separately WI vs Pak): Ganguly Man of the Series (Tendulkar did not play)
1999 Sharjah Cup final: Sourav 50, Tendulkar did not play (India decimated for just 125 and lose badly)
1998-99 Coca-Cola Champions Trophy (Ind/SL/Zim), Sharjah final: Sachin 124*, Sourav 63* (Sachin MoM - aah, at last!) against Zim (!)
1998 Sahara Cup in Toronto - Ganguly 54 and 3/33 and MoM in the only match India won
1998 Singer Nidahas Trophy (Ind, NZ, SL) final - Sachin 128, Sourav 109 (Sachin MoM!) as India win by 6 runs (SL 301)
1997/98 Independence Cup (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) 3rd final (decider) - Sourav 124, Sachin 41 (MoM Sourav)
1997/98 Pepsi Tri-Series final: Sourav 29, Sachin 15 (both fail as India lose to Aus)
1998 Tri-Series (Ind, Ken, Bang) final: Sachin 100*, Ganguly 36 as India win by 9wkts (Sachin MoM - but is this consequential?)
The real biggie for Sachin: 1998 Sharjah Cup (Ind,Aus,NZ): Sachin 134, Sourav 23 (Sachin MoM)
(India won only one other match in this triseries, without which they wouldn't have been in the final; Sourav 105*, Sachin 40 in that game)
1997 Asia Cup - final: Sourav 34, Sachin 53 as India lose to SL by 8 wkts
1997 Sharjah champions trophy - India fail to make final
1997 Sahara Cup in Toronto - India bt Pakistan 4-1, Sourav MoS; 5th match Sourav 96, Sachin 51 (Sourav MoM); 4th Sourav 75* and 2/29 (MoM), Sachin 6; 3rd Sourav 2, Sachin 0 (Sourav MoM for his 5/16 in 10 overs); 2nd Sourav 32 & 2/16 (MoM), Sachin 25.
1996 Titan Cup final - Sachin 67, Sourav did not play. Kumble MoM as India win.
1996-97 Standard Bank series final - Sourav 5, Sachin 45 as India lose by 17 runs


So, basically you have to go all the way back to Sharjah in 1998 to find a match-winning knock by Sachin in a consequential match, as well as the Singer trophy in Sri Lanka that year. Those were very important knocks, no doubt, and Sachin did get MoM awards for two centuries (one each against Zimbabwe and Kenya), but one has to question whether those two were truly consequential matches. By contrast, there is little doubt that Sourav Ganguly -- although somewhat inconsistent -- has been the much more reliable player when it comes to the truly consequential matches. The hunch that Jay and I have about Sachin failing when it matters is backed by the solid tournament-by-tournament evidence that I have described above. I haven't looked at the period before Ganguly's career began -- and it is quite likely that Sachin did great things in some consequential matches before that (although India was further from being a world-beating side until Ganguly and Dravid joined Tendulkar and Azhar to make a terrific batting line-up -- strengthened soon after by the addition of Laxman, and then the replacement of Azhar by Sehwag). 

[jayakris]

Hey, I was not saying that as a hunch or anything  (actually it was just to annoy Sandeep, that's all ) .. i didn't think it was an arguable case, or I would not poke my head in with that silly comment!

I actually thought it was a well-acepted fact that Sachin has rarely closed the show for us, though he was probably the sole reason we were anywhere in the picture on so many occasions .. Remember the way he killed Pakistan in the last world cup in a key match that got us over the hump towards the final? .. And remember how many quietly expected him not to be a factor in the final (well, I did, and hoped for somebody else to do it for us, which did not happen) .. And I can never ever forget that sad sad day when we lost to Sri Lanka in the world cup at Kolkata -- but for Sachin, we would have been all out for 45 runs there, but Sachin brought us close and was absolutely unsolvable for Jayasuriya and party, but as he has been snake-bit all his life when it counted, so was he there too, getting out on a pointless mistake of not grounding the bat on time before a beauty of a direct hit, IIRC.

.. But so has been Sachin all along.  I thought everybody had rather accepted this as reality, but that most do not hold that against the great batsman much, because there is no point in that (I am never so up on the current thinking of the cricket-mad world, so I was not sure).  It is one of cricket's greatest mysteries, how one of the most glorious batsmen in its history could actually end a career with hardly many results that counted - a fact that, in his case, has to be just thrown under the carpet, because he has brought so much joy to so many so often with pure batting at its best.  Any lesser a batsman would probably be soundly disdained and roundly criticized for having such a poor record of closing the show though - but Sachin rightly deserves none of that.

Jay

[puneets]

As Prof. Jay pointed out, the major reason why India made it deep into many tournaments was becuase of Sachin. The law of averages caught up with him eventaully. And there have been a lot of matches in which the whole team failed miserably (except Sachin).

The biggest cricketing spectacle on the face of this earth..the World Cup is one such tournament.
Sachin scored 1732 runs at an average of 60 ..being the highest scorer in '96 and '03 editions.

Jay has summed up the debate nicely. We all know that this discussion is going nowhere. Throw Sandeep in the mix and you get a recipe for an explosive thread.

IIRC, we had already "agreed to disagree" on this one topic. Lets keep the status quo and focus our energies on something more productive (and meaningful).

[PKBasu]

I agree completely on that  .

[Sandeep]

Jay has summed up very well. A very balanced view with out much bias. But my only argument is, if Sachin hasn't won consequential matches for India then who has? For that matter are there any batsmen in the world who has won "consequential matches" for their countries apart from King Richards and Ponting? Being in the best team has definitely helped these batsmen convert their great innings into a match winning one's. But that is not the case with Sachin or most of the great batsmen, let it be Ganguly, Jayasuriya, Haq, Dravid or any one who has more than 8000 ODI runs. What did Lara do for his country in consequential matches? Inspite of all the odds stacked against India in 90s with bad fielding, poor bowling and an average battig line up it was only because of Sachin we managed to win atleat some tournaments (ofcourse Ganguly made the team a very good one from 2000 onwards and he was brilliant in that 3 to 4 years period). Anyways, this is a never ending argument. The opinions were always divided since the time cricket pundits believed Sachin was the best batsmen since Bradman. There are a group of people who think "Sachin is god" and don't see any of his shortcomings while there is another group who only talk about match winning innings and fail to enjoy/recognize even some of the greatest innings in terms of pure batsmanship played by him. Neither sandeep changed nor did PKB . And I am sure both of us has been debating about this topic more than once with more than one over the last 10 years  

[PKBasu]

You know, Raju Bharatan spent much of the 1970s asserting that Vishwanath was at least as good a batsman as Gavaskar -- and probably more important to India, because Vishy had won us more matches. Certainly this was an argument that had some merit in the 1970s (although it galled me, as I was just as much of a Gavaskar fanatic as Sandeep is a Sachin fanatic). It was actually debatable whether he or Vishwanath was the better batsman -- until Gavaskar's purple patch in 1977-80 (he got a century in each innings of a test in Pakistan, got two other 90s in that 1978-79 series, then made a double century in the first test, 107 and 182* in Calcutta and a total of over 730 runs in the series against West Indies, followed by numerous fifties and the great 221 at the Oval in the England series; by that point, Gavaskar had 20 test centuries in 52 tests, second only to Bradman after 52 tests -- the total number Bradman played). Gavaskar was injured after the first test of the 1974-75 series against the West Indies, but India went on to win the third test in Calcutta (Vishy 52 and 139) and the fourth in Madras (Vishy 97*). Gavaskar returned in Bombay, but India lost (Gavaskar 86, Vishy 95). Earlier, in the 1972-73 series, Gavaskar basically failed until the fourth test in Kanpur (when he got 69), but Vishy didn't do much in the two tests India won. In 1976 (in the Windies), both got 100s in the great chase of 403 to win in Port of Spain (although Vishy's was probably marginally more important). But after 1978, Sunny was much the more significant batsman.

More important, though, Vishy played on much longer than he should have -- tarnishing his otherwise-stellar record -- and now appears to be a much less consequential batsman than Gavaskar. This was part of my motivation in starting the thread about the great man calling it a day (?). Sachin already has all the great batting records, and it would be great for him to retire with a towering test batting average of 57+. On the sort of form he was showing in test cricket in recent times, he risked significantly diminishing his stellar record by persisting in test cricket longer than his body allowed. But his long breaks (through injury) may have helped rejuvenate him; he is now batting much more circumspectly in ODIs (and of course in tests too) so this may help him prolong his career. But after 17 years of international cricket, his body is tired and he needs to keep a close watch on his form and make his decision the way Merchant and Gavaskar did -- at a time when people ask "why" rather than "why not?".