All things related to China's aggression

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All things related to China's aggression

Post by Sin Hombre »

This has finally gotten the spotlight it deserves, after the whole fiasco with the NBA bending over backwards after the Rockets' analytics guys Morey tweeted in favour of the HK people. Activision Blizzard banning a popular player and confiscating his earnings after he mentioned his support for pro-HK democracy has only lit the fire.

For people who have been following this, this is nothing new. Richard Gere has been blacklisted by mainstream Hollywood for 2 decades now after he came out as a Buddhist and in support of Tibet.

China's bullying of Vietnam, Philippines and buying/enslaving of a lot of smaller African nations has generally gone unnoticed. As has their detention camps and mass genocide of Muslims (including from the likes of Turkey and bug nation who like to proclaim their Islam-ness at every other occasion).

They have also been shameless in stealing IP since the 80s and initiating forced transfers of technologies from foreign companies.


prasen is our "anti-nationalist" so curious to hear what his thoughts are.

Also with a lot of you in academia, what do you think the impact of colleges in the US getting a lot of Chinese international students been? To a relatively large extent, there is a lot of brainwashing in China (including claiming 0 and chess as Chinese inventions for example) and a tendency to treat anything even remotely not supporting Chinese government as a slight on the entire Chinese people.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by jayakris »

Sin Hombre wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:26 pmprasen is our "anti-nationalist" so curious to hear what his thoughts are.
Haha :) ... But prasen is not anti-national at all. He is just a doubting Thomas. A "twisted-national" who steadfastly refuses to buy any propaganda or logic from the "nationals", and thus ends up missing out on so many things on which the "nationals" are actually right too.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by jayakris »

Sin Hombre wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:26 pmAlso with a lot of you in academia, what do you think the impact of colleges in the US getting a lot of Chinese international students been? To a relatively large extent, there is a lot of brainwashing in China (including claiming 0 and chess as Chinese inventions for example) and a tendency to treat anything even remotely not supporting Chinese government as a slight on the entire Chinese people.
They have been okay, or pretty damn good as students. A lot of them come with money these days for grad studies. Tough to find excellence and high originality in them (like I find in some Indians, Americans, Iranians and some Europeans), but very disciplined in getting things done at a level pretty close to the state-of-the-art. Some (many) are even good at doing what is needed to create the aura of originality and selling themselves, but rarely are they truly exceptional. They are more clued in on the publications-game than those from other places. Many seem to have got exposed to that game even at the undergraduate level, as the Government stresses that a lot in academia in China these days. All in all, our graduate program has not been hurt by the Chinese student invasion.

They don't seem to have bought everything that the Chinese government says. They know better, but they don't seem to have any big opposition to the government schemes either. Many of them are hardly worried about any of that, and are only focuses on their own personal goals. So I guess the Chinese government has succeeded in brainwashing them at least to that "uncaring" extent.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

I support Morey's tweet and I am sad that he had to delete it. I support the protestors in Hong Kong and I support true democracies. I do not support the Chinese autocrats. I do not support China stealing some IP from U.S. companies. Beyond this, I do not know what Sin Hombre's question exactly was. I can opine on specific points if my stance is not clear.

I like to take an adversarial approach on forums to tease out the points and counter-points. If anything, as Jay said, I like to be a doubting Thomas. I want a healthy debate. So, if nobody is taking a side, I will. I like arguments.

Wrt nationalism, I think it has a value wrt uplifting messages. But, I also do not like when it is used in a negative fashion against other countries, etc., cause wars, useless animosity between people.

Jay will like this. According to the Bhagvad Gita, SB Canto 8, it is enjoined, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam: if even an enemy comes to one's home, one should receive him in such a way that the guest will forget that his host is an enemy. (Source: Forget they are your enemy) Read the full article if you are interested. That is who we are. That is what Indian culture is. That is what I am proud of. We have a history of being peaceful people, of not attacking other countries for our personal gain, etc. We do not need to stoop to the level of lowlife riffraffs. Now, I do understand that does not mean we need to be spineless. We need a strong defence. But, a true defence and not an offense.

I have tried to reconcile with two of my "enemies" in real life one of which has worked very well and one has not. We need to show the world that we have class and we do not stoop to the levels of Pakistan (ISI) while not harming our self interests. That is my view. Anyone is free to disagree.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

jayakris wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:45 am and thus ends up missing out on so many things on which the "nationals" are actually right too.
What are the nationals right about, Jay? :-)
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

Sin Hombre wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:26 pm Also with a lot of you in academia, what do you think the impact of colleges in the US getting a lot of Chinese international students been?
In the field of computing, about 70% of our grad students are from China. We have seen a drop in the number of applicants. Slightly. What happens is that with quantity comes quality. So, if the number of applicants drop, I think our quality will drop. I do not know.

I think about 60% of my Ph.D. graduates (about 15) have been Chinese students. Two have been exceptional, i.e., did propose fundamental discoveries that went beyond what I expected. Actually, my best two students have possibly been Chinese. Some of my Indian students were close but not at that level. Now, this is, of course, small sample size.

So, we will possibly have some effect. But, you manage. You train people and try things. I go to other departments, etc. and get the best people.

My current best student is Indian though. Overall, it is about the same. The bad Chinese students have been rather bad. My Indian students minimum standards have been better than theirs. Again, I think this is a function of small sample size.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by jayakris »

prasen9 wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:25 amJay will like this. According to the Bhagvad Gita, SB Canto 8, it is enjoined, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam: if even an enemy comes to one's home, one should receive him in such a way that the guest will forget that his host is an enemy. (Source: Forget they are your enemy) Read the full article if you are interested.
That is actually not from Bhagavat Gita. I had never seen it, so I had to go investigate... It is actually from Pancha-tantra, and so it fits. That book is filled with practical "tantras" - strategies.

It looks like it was a favorite line for Swami Sreela Prabhupada (from Kokata, where else?) who founded the Hare Krishna movement. He used it in explaining some lines from SrImad bhAgavatam (not bhagavat gIta), as in the above link. But anyway, he was right that such "tricks" were part of bhAratIya culture all along. He said, "from Vedic times".
That is who we are. That is what Indian culture is. That is what I am proud of. We have a history of being peaceful people, of not attacking other countries for our personal gain, etc. We do not need to stoop to the level of lowlife riffraffs. Now, I do understand that does not mean we need to be spineless. We need a strong defence. But, a true defence and not an offense.
The part in bold, is the important thing that you said. What "anti-nationals" have often tried to establish is a spineless mind-set, and they often used great statements from age-old Indian literature (sometimes even non-religious works like pancha-tantra) and twisted them to make Indians become too nice and spineless. The above line is terrific and it is advocating a strategic play against the enemy, and nothing spineless.
We need to show the world that we have class and we do not stoop to the levels of Pakistan (ISI) while not harming our self interests. That is my view. Anyone is free to disagree.
Our current government has by and large done that, and in way with some show of strength and conviction also that we won't be pushed around. Like how India handled the latest Kashmir action and simply stayed put with our plan, without kowtowing to international pressure. The Congress and Communists leaders who warned against international repercussions and prayed for everybody to jump on India, are left crying.

Of course, if Pakistan or China who oppose us want to visit and have a good time with us, we should be great hosts, and show class. Like we did with Xi in Mamallapuram just now. The Chinese are no pushovers in figuring out what it means and know not to trust us too much, but they know that they can deal with us, even when we are enemies. Our behavior to other countries has not gone down in class from how our past PMs used to do it, but the difference is palpable that people don't take us to be a weak and spineless country anymore.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

Thank you for correcting the source.

Wrt nationalism, I regret not learning Sanskrit. So, I have to rely on these translations and secondary sources. Maybe after I retire, I will teach myself.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by Sin Hombre »

prasen I don't have a single question but I wanted to start a conversation around a few related topics. I'll try to put them in questions.

Are the moral and ethical values of the CCP (or China, is there even a separation?) entirely incompatible with Western / liberal democratic values? Is this issue already intractable and the horse has already bolted given corporate America seems to bow down to the bullying, authoritarianism and censorship?

We on the other hand have been pushed around for our entire existence as a democratic non-aligned republic. ESPN in an attempt to appease China after the Morey tweet this week was showing maps with Arunachal Pradesh and the South China islands and Taiwan as part of China. How long will we let this happen? Does it even matter?

Also wanted to hear what your personal experiences were given a lot mainland Chinese online seem to not just acquiesce but join in the bullying and censorship (recent example were the death threats being sent to the Aussie swimmer who refused to join the podium with a dope cheat). My personal experience is very similar to Jay (they seem uncaring if anything) but have read a lot of accounts in the last week where people claim otherwise (Chinese kids coming to the US for college but proclaiming how China is better than the US in every regard, quite oblivious to their own situation).
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by Sin Hombre »

The one thing which I personally have been a big fan of is our current MEA.

They don't respond to every slight but unlike past administrations, they don't let them pass either.

Erdogan is responsible for Kurdish genocide and culling of political rivals but likes to think of himself as a modern Caliph, and has been berating India on the Kashmir issue. Past Indian governments would have taken that, but this MEA has been slamming them on the Syrian invasion.

Similarly with Malaysia and Mahathir Mohammed who is one of the most corrupt politicians in SEA. Malaysia also depends a lot on Indian tourism and spending. There has been talk since of restricting import of palm oil and other goods from Malaysia.

Mauritius is another where we have lost billions in corporate taxes over the years. ishares/blackrock for years were funneling money in and out of India through Mauritius without paying a single rupee in taxes. That loophole has been cut but even then, until this month, they thought they could bully India into not having to pay these taxes and that has not been allowed.

Actions speak louder than words, but at least the words at least sound encouraging from an Indian perspective.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by jayakris »

Sin Hombre wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:03 amThe one thing which I personally have been a big fan of is our current MEA. They don't respond to every slight but unlike past administrations, they don't let them pass either.
Speaking of that, if any of you have not seen this UN speech by a young diplomat Vidisha Maitra (yet another super-bright Bengali, though from Delhi), in response to some bug country excrement from Imran Khan, please watch it. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 345194.cms .. That is the kind of response that we never saw from Indians before. Hard-hitting, and basically below the belt too. Calling Imran khan with his family name Niazi, and referring to Pakistan's gun-maker town and mountain-goat national animal, etc. Classic.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by jayakris »

Maybe we should just make this a "Chinese bullying" thread?

Anyway, solders died on both sides in fistfight at the border between India and China today. They still wouldn't fire at each other, but this seems like a real all-out brawl. It doesn't look good. China is asking for it.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

We should be careful about brawls. Is it in our best interest? How can we best protect our land and not encourage such adventurism in the future to show that we are strong in defending ourselves without being drawn into a quagmire. China is bigger than us. We need to have a strategic point where we draw the line. Usually that means, get on the top of a mountain (metaphorically speaking) that gives us strategic advantage and from there fire out. Or, engage in guerilla (distributed) warfare. What I want the government is to be canny and not foolhardy.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

Sin Hombre wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:03 am Similarly with Malaysia and Mahathir Mohammed who is one of the most corrupt politicians in SEA. Malaysia also depends a lot on Indian tourism and spending. There has been talk since of restricting import of palm oil and other goods from Malaysia.
Again, this one needs to be done in a smart manner. If we stop importing or putting tariffs, we are hurting our own people. Instead, our politicians with the bullhorn should make calls on Indians to stop touring Malaysia and ask them to instead visit, say Thailand or Indonesia. And, cut a deal with those countries to get some favorable trade deals, etc. Hurt them where it hurts without hurting our own people. Boycott works. See the British and Gandhi. All I want is our government to fight tooth and nail but not rush out stupidly.

What can we do to get Mauritius to play ball? Their own economy and survival depends upon being a tax-offshore. We need to figure out how to catch people moving money out to there and engage the international community of banks, etc. to stop money-laundering, tax-evasion etc. But, I do not see a very easy or quick solution.
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Re: Chinese bullying of corporate America

Post by prasen9 »

Sin Hombre wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:54 am Are the moral and ethical values of the CCP (or China, is there even a separation?) entirely incompatible with Western / liberal democratic values?
Yes. But, the West has also been engaged in anti-democratic actions. See the pampering of the Arab dictators, preventing left-leaning democracies in S. America, supporting dictators such as Pinochet and Sisi, support for human rights violations in Israel-Palestine, etc. A simple example is that the founders of this country said big words that all men are created equal etc. but in practice, enslaved other fellow human beings. So, from what is on paper, it is completely incompatible. From practice, well, everyone is trying to do what is best for them. We need a strong world government that establishes law and order and not might is right.
ESPN in an attempt to appease China after the Morey tweet this week was showing maps with Arunachal Pradesh and the South China islands and Taiwan as part of China. How long will we let this happen? Does it even matter?
It certainly matters, but, what can we do? The government should call up ESPN and threaten to ban them in India? Or fine them? Can you fine some company for what they say abroad? We should certainly raise a stink but do not know what is the best way to be successful wrt our goals.
Also wanted to hear what your personal experiences were given a lot mainland Chinese online seem to not just acquiesce but join in the bullying and censorship (recent example were the death threats being sent to the Aussie swimmer who refused to join the podium with a dope cheat). My personal experience is very similar to Jay (they seem uncaring if anything) but have read a lot of accounts in the last week where people claim otherwise (Chinese kids coming to the US for college but proclaiming how China is better than the US in every regard, quite oblivious to their own situation).
The Chinese do not usually want to talk about political issues. And, yes, they are patriotic. They are possibly more brain-washed, conditioned for decades when they grew up into thinking that it is their duty. They question less. And, yes, they support China and say it is doing great etc. My students cannot really say that China is better in every regard. Then, I ask them why they came here. Are they themselves not that great to make it in Chinese universities that are better than US ones? So between having to pick that they are second-class students or China has second-class universities, they do not make blanket claims in front of me at least. But the jingoism is there by and large. Some have criticized China in private. But very few. Most are very uncomfortable to talk about anything remotely political at all.

BTW, in reality, the Chinese universities have become pretty good. But, on the average, we still are ahead of them. They are investing large amounts. I taught a short course in December in China just when the coronavirus was secretly spreading there I suppose and flew back in early January. They are getting there. Indian universities have improved in the last decade too but China had started modernization and emphasis on research at least a decade earlier.
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