Sumit Nagal thread

[arjun2761]

But, how is Lamasine UTR ahead of Sumit ? I was being curious and computed the ATP points earned by Sumit and Lamasine only in last year i.e after resumption of tennis post covid break in September. Sumit is way ahead with 233 points earned from 21 tournaments while Lamasine has 115 points earned from 22 tournaments. So,in a normal year Sumit would still be 70-80 spots ahead of Lamasine although both would be ranked much lower than their current ATP ranking.

What does UTR consider for Lamasime to be rated ahead of Sumit ?

I think UTR factors in who you play and beat (and lose) and the recency as well. If I were to guess, Sumit picked up his points playing easier opponents at least in terms of their UTR rankings.

[Sanjay]

But, how is Lamasine UTR ahead of Sumit ? I was being curious and computed the ATP points earned by Sumit and Lamasine only in last year i.e after resumption of tennis post covid break in September. Sumit is way ahead with 233 points earned from 21 tournaments while Lamasine has 115 points earned from 22 tournaments. So,in a normal year Sumit would still be 70-80 spots ahead of Lamasine although both would be ranked much lower than their current ATP ranking.

What does UTR consider for Lamasime to be rated ahead of Sumit ?

I think UTR factors in who you play and beat (and lose) and the recency as well. If I were to guess, Sumit picked up his points playing easier opponents at least in terms of their UTR rankings.

The UTR formula gives more weight to recent results.
UTR does not care about wins or losses. It just cares about what percentage of games a player wins against another player and rewards and penalizes them based on their UTR.

[sameerph]

The UTR formula gives more weight to recent results.
UTR does not care about wins or losses. It just cares about what percentage of games a player wins against another player and rewards and penalizes them based on their UTR.

Oh, that is interesting. Is there any place where the rules of how UTR is computed available ?

[jaydeep]

Oh, that is interesting. Is there any place where the rules of how UTR is computed available ?

Sameer, you can find algorithm on their site only.
Understanding the UTR Rating Algorithm

About match, bad loss for Sumit, losing after 4-1 lead in the second.

[Sanjay]

UTR is overall a good system to give an idea of if you are improving or not. I have a few issues with it like they claim it puts all players on a same scale but I think it puts men and women on different scales since they don't play the same tournaments. How much of a difference it makes, we can argue but it is not the same scale.

The other is that your UTR goes up or down based on future matches of an opponent. I find this ridiculous.
As an example, if I am at UTR 5.00 and beat a player called John of UTR 4.9 with a score of 7-6, 7-6. The UTR change after this game is minimal. Then John goes and beats Novak Djokovic of UTR 16.00 by a score of 6-0 6-0!
It makes sense that John's UTR shoots up to whatever it goes to, but even my UTR goes up dramatically because I beat someone who thrashed Djokovic afterwards. In other words I am rewarded for my opponent getting better after our match.

[arjun2761]

Sorry Sanjay, you are ranting at something that is completely in line with common sense.

How often do we say here, that XX lost to someone who was hot (i.e., playing "better" than their ranking). This system actually factors that in as long as recency is factored in. Almost all the college football, basketball etc. rating systems also do exactly this, i.e., your ratings change based on how the teams that you have previously played do as it provides a better picture of how good or bad that opponent actually was. That is, if the team you lost is also beating everyone else then your rating goes down less based on that "good" loss whereas if someone you beat also then loses to everyone else then your rating goes up less based on that "meh" win).

[Sanjay]

My point is that a player should not get credit when someone he beat suddenly gets better (or worse) at a time after their sporting encounter when the player had nothing to do with it.

So if I play someone beat him comprehensively and in 2 weeks that player gets Federer to coach him and ends up beating an ATP player like Nagal, credit should should be given to that player, not to me. He got better, not me. But UTR bumps my UTR also. I don't agree with that logic.

[arjun2761]

Sanjay, once again you are just missing the point! The UTR and most other rating system isn't about "getting credit." It's about assessing someone's level relative to others. So, this system makes sense to most of the world (see RPI, CFP ratings etc.) but perhaps not to you...

[sameerph]

Wimbledon qualifying entry list came out today and surprised that Sumit has decided to altogether skip Grass season including Wimbledon qualies. He has entered Milan Challenger on clay in the same week of Wimbledon qualies.

We know he does not much of a chance on grass but still I thought he would turn up at least for Wimbledon qualies to pick up good amount of prize money.

After not entering the Wimbledon qualies, Sumit has now pulled out of Milan Challenger next week. So, all this quest for sacrificing Wimbledon for playing clay challenger for points goes out of window.

Looks like he may have picked up some injury- lost the third set tamely after being competitive for first 2 sets against Lamasine.

Next up for him will be Braunschweig challenger in Germany after 2 weeks break. That is of course ifhe gets over whatever is ailing him.

[sameerph]

Sumit is playing qualies at Hamburg ATP 500 and gets a German unranked wild card in Q1. Hope he overcomes him without any hiccups.

[sameerph]

And he does start with an easy win.

At Hamburg European Open ATP 500, (Clay)

[Q1] Sumit Nagal (IND,150) d. (WC) Lewie Lane (GER,NR) 63 61

Next,

[Q2] Sumit Nagal (IND,150) vs. Zizhen Zhang (CHN,175)

Zhizen Zhang recently qualfied for Wimbledon main draw. However, he does not have great results on clay and RamK beat him in a challenger last month. So, Sumit usually should win over him on clay. But, Sumit's confidence is low right now and Zhang's high, he also beat much higher ranked Kovalik today. So, one never knows how this match will go.

[Rajiv]

Another tame 46 26 loss , Sumit is in a complete downward spiral, hope he can recover soon and come of it.

[sameerph]

So, again UTR proves to be right. Zheng has a better UTR than Sumit but just. Sumit lost tamely. He seems really low on confidence these days. It hurts though to see a Chinese #1 beat the Indian #1 on clay which is his favorite surface.

There is 1 LL spot in main draw. Let us see if Sumit has a chance.

[jaydeep]

Yes, the last few weeks Sumit is showing lot of inconsistency in his performance

[jayakris]

Yes, this loss hurts a bit more than normal, as it is against a Chinese. Something is up with Sunil. Hope he is not hit with some physical ailment too.