India's Dream Cricket Test Team

[paulo_eddie]

Ajay Sharma was a match fixer and should never be included in any Indian XI ever

???????????? r u confusing ajay sharma with manoj prabhakar?
i never heard of ajay sharma's involvement in match fixing.
IIRC it was azhar,jadeja,salim malik, ata ur rahman who were indicted for fixing. prabhakar retired, so he got away without a ban.
while warne, mark waugh and nayan mongia were indicted for minor offences of weather and pitch info. exchange with bookies.
of course, also hansie cronje.
apart from these boje, gibbs and henry were also allegedly asked to underperform by hansie but formal charges were never levelled against those two. similarly maurice odumble was also said to have got something to do with fixing but again nothin substantial came out of it either.

i never heard of ajay sharma's involvement though

[Sandeep]

Ajay Sharma had a bookies number in his cell. Yeah, he was also accused of match fixing, I am not sure if it is proven.

[PKBasu]

Ajay Sharma was supposedly Azhar's conduit to the bookies.
Nobody included Ajay Sharma in any all-time Indian XIs, but the discussion above had to do with Gavaskar comparing WG Grace's domestic first class record with Ajay Sharma's (before the match-fixing controversy).
Eddie, Cronje was caught red-handed. He fixed matches, and tried to even convince his team to fix them: having been caught in the act by the Delhi Police, he later "confessed" and all the details came out later in his fellow-players' testimony about how he spoke to the team to convince them to throw a match for a price, etc. There is no incontrovertible evidence against any of the others, but Cronje was clearly caught in the act.

[paulo_eddie]

yes of course PKB, cronje was definitely caught red handed and he was honest enough to confess. my placement of the cronje sentence right after the waugh,warne and mongia one might've come across as including him with those three . actually i wrote it there cos i recalled it right at tht moment.
cronje was a match-fixer. no two ways bout that one.
still, kinda feel sorry for him. he looked like a good man all along. anyway, may his soul rest in peace.

[PKBasu]

Cricinfo has started trying to select the all-time India XI, so it is time to revive this thread (especially in memory of Bhushan, who started the thread). I had the following as my 1st and 2nd XI six years ago (before Dhoni had played for India):

Sunil Gavaskar (captain) / Vijay Merchant
Vinoo Mankad / Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid / Dilip Vengsarkar
Sachin Tendulkar / Gundappa Vishwanath
Vijay Hazare / Sourav Ganguly (captain)
Mohammed Azharuddin / Mohinder Amarnath
Kapil Dev / Javagal Srinath
Syed Kirmani / Probir Sen
Erapalli Prasanna (10) / Harbhajan Singh
Mohammed Nissar (11) / Bishen Singh Bedi
Anil Kumble (9) / Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

Now, I would pick the following as my first XI:
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammed Azharuddin
Vinoo Mankad
MS Dhoni (captain)
Kapil Dev
Anil Kumble
Erapalli Prasanna
Mohd Nissar

And the 2nd XI would be:
Vijay Merchant
Navjot Sidhu
Dilip Vengsarkar
VVS Laxman
Sourav Ganguly (c)
Mohinder Amarnath
Syed Kirmani
Javagal Srinath
Harbhajan Singh
Bishen Bedi
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

I would be tempted to include Polly Umrigar ahead of Vengsarkar, but Polly was a dolly to Truman, and Vengsarkar faced down all the great pacers of his era. I would prefer to have him at #3.

[Prashant]

As with any "Greatest" conversation, one needs distinguish between picking on the basis of an entire career, vs based on the player at his apex. Cricinfo has chosen the former approach, which is perhaps more reasonable.

If you use the latter, i.e. the best year/season, I would pick Vengsarkar over any other middle order bat except Tendulkar (and I had to think about that). When he was at his best, he was incredible. His best was a lot shorter than some of those other names though.

[prasen9]

I would pick:

SMG, VS, RSD, SRT, Laxman/Hazare, Kapil, Kirmani/Dhoni, Kumble, Prasanna, Bedi, Amar Singh

I have Hazare ahead by a nose of Laxman, but, if VVS keeps playing match-winning innings in the next few series, he grabs the spot. It is very hard for me to keep Chandra out of the 11 but with Kumble in, for variety, I kept him out and brought Prasanna in as a diversity selection. I may be tempted to play both Kumble and Chandra otherwise. I chose the better keeper in Kirmani than Dhoni, but, giving up 15 runs an innings with the bat is a hard temptation to overcome. My captain would be Kapil for the simple reason that he brought home the WC.

For the second XI, I would have:

GG, Sidhu, Amarnath, Azhar, Umrigar, Mankad, Dhoni/Kiri, Chandra, Gulam Ahmed, Nissar, Srinath

If Nissar is claimed by Pakistan --- he was a Lahori --- then we get Zaheer. There is no better #3 than Amarnath, Dravid excepted. I do not know if you remember PKB the series in West Indies with the fiery pacers where Amarnath stood tall while all else collapsed around him. I was a kid then and mightily impressed. Of course, Amarnath came back and had a couple of lousy series after that when he lost form. That is, if I recall correctly. But, he slots into #3 easily for my second XI. Vengsarkar at his peak was great, but, then so was Kambli. But, I am considering their entire career. Vengsarkar and Ganguly were a bit too inconsistent for my taste. I do not know much about the details of Umrigar's career, but, I chose him by default.

[gbelday]

Now, I would pick the following as my first XI:
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammed Azharuddin
Vinoo Mankad
MS Dhoni (captain)
Kapil Dev
Anil Kumble
Erapalli Prasanna
Mohd Nissar

And the 2nd XI would be:
Vijay Merchant
Navjot Sidhu
Dilip Vengsarkar
VVS Laxman
Sourav Ganguly (c)
Mohinder Amarnath
Syed Kirmani
Javagal Srinath
Harbhajan Singh
Bishen Bedi
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

I am generally ok with your first XI although I don't know much about Mohd. Nissar. I would probably include Srinath in that team.
In your second XI, you have only one genuine pacer. I would certainly include Amarnath as a batsman but not as an opening bowler (although I think he did open for India on many occassions). I am not so sure about Sidhu. Didn't we have bettter opening bats? Pankaj Roy or Chetan Chauhan? I haven't looked up stats though.

[prasen9]

Pankaj Roy was before my times. Chauhan, I think never scored a century. I do not think that there is something special about the number 100, but, I would avoid people who cannot play long innings or get nervous at crucial times. We have not had very many great opening batsmen. So, I chose Gambhir. In my times, I can recall Ramesh as being a very good opener, but, somehow he got injured and lost form and did not have a good career after that. Sigh! Merchant opened a few times and maybe Vinoo Mankad, who also opened a few times could be pushed up to open. But, from the regular openers, I guess Pankaj Roy or Chetan Chauhan would be the choices. Srikkanth and Wasim Jaffer were the other ones who had longish careers as opening bats. Engineer, Gaekwad, Contractor, Jaisima, Arun Lal, Shastri, Das, Kunderan and our very own Laxman were the other openers over the years (and I can recall). Anyone catches the eye? I would be willing to try Merchant and/or Shastri if you really don't like Sidhu or Gambhir.

[Sandeep]

Thanks PKB for reviving this thread, it was fascinating to read the arguments we all had (especially you and Kunal (Red_Indian) ) 6 years back!!

My Indian dream team: -

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar (c)
Vengsarkar
Kirmani
Kapil Dev
Anil Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
Bishan singh Bedi
Irfan Pathan

That was my first XI way back then and obviously things have changed. Dhoni has definitely become our best keeper/batsman and Irfan Pathan simply faded away. Laxman's stature has grown leaps and bounds in the past 5 to 6 years from the time I posted my XI. Otherwise most of it remains the same. My XI now would be

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin (C)
Laxman
Dhoni
Kapil Dev
Harbhajan Singh
Anil Kumble
Zaheer khan
Bishan Singh Bedi

[kna]

I would go with the following:

Gavaskar (c)
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman / Vengsarkar (too tough to call - both have played many crucial knocks for the team)
Mankad (brings great balance to the team, and not much difference in quality between him and Bedi as left-arm spinners)
Kapil
Dhoni (Kirmani the better keeper, but Dhoni the much better bat)
Kumble (longevity, consistency and record gives him the edge over Chandra)
Zaheer (being a lefty helps)
Prasanna / Srinath (Prasanna for spinning or dead wickets, Srinath for seaming or bouncy tracks)

We will always have a right-arm and a left-arm fast bowler, a leg-spinner and a left-arm spinner. Depending on the track, we will have an off-spinner or another right arm fast bowler. Sehwag and Tendulkar can also pitch in with a few overs.

The batting line up is deep (Dhoni at #8) and Kumble and Zaheer are also useful bats.

I debated between Gavaskar and Kapil as captains, and finally decided on Gavaskar, even though he was a more defensive captain than Kapil. I felt that freeing Kapil from the captaincy would help him concentrate on his bowling.

[Prashant]

I'd pick a very similar lineup (just swapping Srinath for Zaheer):

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Vengsarkar
Kapil (C)
Mankad
Dhoni
Kumble
Srinath
Prasanna
12th man: Solkar

Toughest omissions: Amarnath, Vishwanath, Laxman for batsmen, Zaheer & Bedi as bowlers. Solkar would never make my playing 11 but would be my top sub in the field. I don't think I rate Kirmani as highly as everyone else here. He definitely played some crucial knocks, but would not ever have made the side as a batsman alone.

[PKBasu]

Now, I would pick the following as my first XI:
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammed Azharuddin
Vinoo Mankad
MS Dhoni (captain)
Kapil Dev
Anil Kumble
Erapalli Prasanna
Mohd Nissar

And the 2nd XI would be:
Vijay Merchant
Navjot Sidhu
Dilip Vengsarkar
VVS Laxman
Sourav Ganguly (c)
Mohinder Amarnath
Syed Kirmani
Javagal Srinath
Harbhajan Singh
Bishen Bedi
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

I am generally ok with your first XI although I don't know much about Mohd. Nissar. I would probably include Srinath in that team.
In your second XI, you have only one genuine pacer. I would certainly include Amarnath as a batsman but not as an opening bowler (although I think he did open for India on many occassions). I am not so sure about Sidhu. Didn't we have bettter opening bats? Pankaj Roy or Chetan Chauhan? I haven't looked up stats though.

Nothing creates more of a frisson among cricket fans than this type of discussion. I love indulging it, hence the revival of this thread! On Gautam's points above, I think there have been only four genuine fast bowlers of world class in India's entire test history -- Nissar, Amar Singh, Kapil Dev and Srinath. Zaheer has occasionally been world-class, but his career numbers are really not very good (as there was a prolonged period of poor performances before he was dropped in 2005). I don't think he qualifies for an all-time XI. On the other hand, I agree that the 2nd XI would probably be more appropriate to Indian conditions rather than to tests overseas (especially Australia and South Africa), but Amarnath and Ganguly could alternate in sharing the new ball with Srinath (Ganguly would do quite well in England and New Zealand, and who can forget what Mohinder did with the ball in England 1983?). I genuinely feel that the best balance to any Indian side (given the skill sets Indians have always had) would be 3 spinners and two pacers (with atleast one allrounder among those five bowlers to give the team balance). That we have spinners of the quality of Subhash Gupte, Venkat, Maninder, Venkatapathy Raju, Shastri, Bapu Nadkarni, Salim Durani (the latter three as allrounders), etc. who cannot even be considered shows the spinning depth available. But for overseas tests, I think I have to drop one spinner (probably Harbhajan, who does not have a good record outside India) and bring in Amar Singh (who Hammond described as "coming off the wicket like the crack of doom"), which would hugely strengthen the batting too.

To my mind, the first name that always figures in the first XI of all-time great Indian test players is Vinoo Mankad. His best years were destroyed by the War, but he was simply India's greatest left-arm spinner ever (he got to 100 wickets quicker than Bedi) AND was a superb batsman who batted in all 11 positions for India (distinguishing himself as an opener with the highest opening stand in tests, a record that stood for more than four decades). He retired with the highest number of wickets for an Indian (a record that stood for more than two decades before Prasanna overtook him, soon to be overtaken by Bedi) and the the highest individual score by an Indian batsman (a record that was only broken 29 years later by Gavaskar).

I am intrigued by prasen9's choice of Gautam Gambhir ahead of Merchant as opener. The latter had a short career in terms of the number of tests, but this lasted nearly twenty years (almost always as an opener, including a marvellous partnership with Mushtaq Ali -- including a terrific 213-run opening stand at Old Trafford in 1936 in just over two hours that was truly electrifying -- and ending with Pankaj Roy's test debut against England in the first test of the 1952 home series). He still has the second-highest first-class average of all time (after Bradman). Gambhir has not yet done enough outside India, in my view, to justify being picked ahead of Merchant.

Sidhu, to my mind, had a career of achievements that far exceeded other openers like Roy, Chauhan, Srikkanth, etc., especially in tests. Who can forget that he showed the way in thrashing Shane Warne, apart from making a double-century against the might of West Indian pace at its pomp? And yes, of course, I remember Mohinder's terrific series against (and in) the West Indies as #3 in 1983 (followed by the string of ducks in the return series in India later than year). As a pure #3, I think Dravid is streets ahead, and Vengsarkar too had a career of achievements that was quite a bit ahead of Mohinder (who, ofcourse, made his debut as an opening bowler, and became a great middle-order batsman in various roles -- hence easy to fit into the all-time XI).

[PKBasu]

I find it interesting that Prasanna (my boyhood hero) seems to figure in most people's first XI. (I can guarantee that Ramachandra Guha, who is one of Cricinfo's slate of selectors, will not pick him as he dislikes Pras and much prefers Bedi). But I think we are absolutely right about this choice, because Prasanna was the match-winner in our first few overseas test (and series) victories, and did fabulously well in Australia and New Zealand in the late-1960s, and pretty well in the 1970-1 West Indies series too. The only place he didn't do well was in England (although Wadekar, perhaps unfairly, didn't pick him for any of the three tests in 1971, and his other two England tours were in the first half of the summer -- which is cold and wet, completely alien conditions for Indian spinners).

His career record was spoilt by his last series (in Pakistan, 1978) when he was clobbered on deliberately unresponsive pitches at the end of his career. Between 1968 and 1976, I think he was the best of the spin trio (except in 1971-74, when Chandra eclipsed him). Bedi was the perfect foil to the two match-winners from Karnataka throughout.

[prasen9]

I don't think I rate Kirmani as highly as everyone else here. He definitely played some crucial knocks, but would not ever have made the side as a batsman alone.

I think I am a throwback to those times when wicket-keepers were chosen by their ability to keep alone and batting was a side business. I cringe at catches/stumpings being clanged down a keeper's gloves by the likes of Gilchrist, Dhoni, etc. I think Gilchrist was the first among the clangers --- top-notch batsmen by their own rights and almost-there as a keeper. These are the biggest dilemmas. Do you sacrifice a bit of keeping for a lot of batting? Perhaps that is the pragmatic choice. Gilchrist, Dhoni, Prior are such keepers. Maybe even Haddin. And you had Alec Stewart have a longish career. However, in an all-time XI, I would choose the best pure keeper first. Sorry, but Kirmani is ahead as a keeper over Dhoni by my eyes. I know the numbers possibly say something different. I do not go against numbers except in a very small number of cases.

With respect to Merchant over Gambhir, that is my ignorance. I must admit that for players who played much before my times, I just chose on the basis of hearsay and stats. And, hence, I may not have fully appreciative of Merchant's qualities. Merchant only played 10 tests. I know it is not his fault, but, would you consider Padmakar Shivalkar for the all-time XI? Rajinder Goel? It is very difficult to include people whose careers are incomplete because we do not have a complete body of work. If you say Merchant is better than Gambhir, I won't argue. For example, I believe my dad or some uncle or someone else impressed upon the quality of Ghulam Ahmed, Subhash Gupte, etc.'s bowling. So, on the basis of that and the general deterioration of Harbhajan, I chose Ahmed though you could make a case for Harbhajan going by total numbers. I suppose I am the only one who had him in the XI. I also agonized that we cannot make space for Gupte. But, Kumble and Chandra deserve to be before him even if they are not classical leggies. Much of my evaluation of older players is based on anecdotes/stories I heard as a child long ago and thus perhaps subject to randomness. Gambhir's selection is based on projection as is the case with Zaheer.

If you want to play 3 pacers each in the first two XIs playing abroad, we would be hard-pressed to get six medium pacers. My list would be Kapil, Amar Singh, Nissar and the second XI of Srinath, Zaheer, Karsan Ghavri. I cannot remember anyone else. Of the current lot, maybe by projection, Irfan and Sreesanth. But, that depends upon a lot of ifs and buts.