Sports and Performance Enhancing Drugs (Doping)

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:15 pm

Milkha Singh says what mugu has been saying for a long time in the forum.

Read Only Anju has a chance: Milkha Singh

prasen9 · Post by **prasen9** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:12 am

While I do not condone the usage of dopes, I do not agree with Jay's contention that we cannot be good at weightlifting. Doping is a bane in all of weightlifting including the Indian athletes. It is naive to say that the others are all clean and we can compete only because of dope - though he did not exactly say that, it sounded like that.

-pm

mugu · Post by **mugu** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:28 am

prasen9 wrote:While I do not condone the usage of dopes, I do not agree with Jay's contention that we cannot be good at weightlifting. Doping is a bane in all of weightlifting including the Indian athletes. It is naive to say that the others are all clean and we can compete only because of dope - though he did not exactly say that, it sounded like that.

-pm

Absolutely true prasen9. I doubt whether Jay is, even for a moment, thinking or suggesting that other weighlifters are `clean'. But then when we bring in this argument that others also are taking `dope', we condone doping. That means we will encourage doping eventually. That means we are in agreement with coach Pal Singh Sandhu (quoted by Pratima Kumari in Times of India today: ``Sandhu didn't approach me since he knew I have always kept away from doping. But at the camp he told us without doping we did not have any chance to win a medal.''). And that means there is no escape from this phenomenon.
Well, that is what all the international agencies are trying to get rid of. This belief that there is no success without dope. US athletics is finding it the hard way, Chinese athletics and swimming learnt it long ago; Romanian and Bulgarian weightlifting found it that it is of no use in the longer run. India is on the threshold of finding it, without even getting a medal (There is a chance for the federation to get suspended for two years since rules permit such a procedure in case three lifters of your country test positive at international competitions in one calendar year. We had Sunaina earlier in the Asian championships)
The shame that is brought to the country is more important I think than the momentary jubilation that a medal will bring. Even if we ignore, for a moment, the ethical part of doping and the harmful effects of drugs.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:40 am

I didn't know that the sports federation could suspended for two years if more than three athletes test positive

There is a chance for the federation to get suspended for two years since rules permit such a procedure in case three lifters of your country test positive at international competitions in one calendar year. We had Sunaina earlier in the Asian championships

Would that mean our lifters can't participate in international meets... Would any of the weight lifting official take responsibility and resign?

mugu · Post by **mugu** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:15 am

Kumar wrote:I didn't know that the sports federation could suspended for two years if more than three athletes test positive
There is a chance for the federation to get suspended for two years since rules permit such a procedure in case three lifters of your country test positive at international competitions in one calendar year. We had Sunaina earlier in the Asian championships
Would that mean our lifters can't participate in international meets... Would any of the weight lifting official take responsibility and resign?

Yes, that provision is there plus (and/or) a fine of 30,000 US dollars. It is to be seen whether the IWF will apply that rule in the Indian case. It will be under pressure to do that, for, the sport, despite all those tests, is in disrepute all over again, just as it was the case in Sydney.
First of course the procedures involving Pratima and Chanu will have to be completed. There is an appeals process. If the Indian lifters want to go through with that. Simply saying ``someone gave me some medicine'' (as Chanu is saying) or ``coaches gave me several injections'' (as Pratima is saying) will be of no help at all.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:00 am

Okay Chanu is claiming she is innocent and somebody

"someone mixed some substance in my tea or coffee. But I cannot name the person because I don't have any proof."

http://www.hindu.com/2004/08/22/stories ... 061600.htm

Did she drink the Tea or Coffee after the event? If after the event, why should someone wantonly mix something in her beverage, as she had finished only 4th ? or is it some jealous indian competitor ?

May be it makes sense if something was mixed before the event, so that even if she wins the medal, she would lose it!!! But why the hell does she drink coffee/ tea before the event!!! Shouldn't she drink milk as "milk is good for bones"!!!

But her statement shows that indian athletes are never ready to accept blame and make ridiculous allegations to protect their name..

prasen9 · Post by **prasen9** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:36 pm

mugu wrote:Absolutely true prasen9. I doubt whether Jay is, even for a moment, thinking or suggesting that other weighlifters are `clean'. But then when we bring in this argument that others also are taking `dope', we condone doping. That means we will encourage doping eventually. That means we are in agreement with coach Pal Singh Sandhu (quoted by Pratima Kumari in Times of India today: ``Sandhu didn't approach me since he knew I have always kept away from doping. But at the camp he told us without doping we did not have any chance to win a medal.''). And that means there is no escape from this phenomenon.

Actually, if we believe that we do not have the genetics/build to otherwise win, we start thinking of additional help to make us win. The thinking that if we put in the effort and resources we can win in archery but not in weightlifting is what would lead us to take banned substances. I am against the genetic/natural advantage theory. Though it may be true for entire races taken together, it does not hold true for all individuals taken individually.

-pm

Post by **jayakris** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:15 pm

Sorry, I was late in checking this thread.

Actually what I was saying was that weightlifting is something that we really don't have much of an advantage in, compared to events like archery, shooting, etc (or equestrian, soccer, tennis etc) where other qualities such as accuracy, mental sharpness, creativity, etc have some impact. I do believe that some of these factors vary a little bit from country to country due to cultural reasons (long-term into millenia, and short term over the last 100 years - both). Just my untested hypothesis.

I don't think basic genetic makeup is a huige reason for a lot of the failures India has had in sports, but I do not dicount the ffect of genes either. It is possibly rather well-established that muscle structure and other things have variation across races, which is the reason why you see different african races being better in long-distance vs short-distance running.. So, I am not against the genes theory altogether, but I am dead against the argument that THAT is the big reason for our failures.

There is also differences based on diet and all that. I don't discount that either. That goes under the "cultural difference" hypothesis anyway.

The effect of all of these are quite minimal if we just get our act together in sports and simply become more well-organized in identifying very young talents, and in coaching and training - THAT has always been my belief.

In any case, I just cannot seem to find ANY reason why weightlifting is an event where Indians (and Indian women particularly) have some advantage for cultural reasons or genetic reasons. So, if all the countries stopped doping and we did too, I don't see why we should expect to do particularly well in weighlifting, of all things, compared to say sailing or archery or taekwondo or equestrian...

The one advantage we have in sheer numbers (and thus the chance for "freaks" to emerge), is there ins ALL sports. So far that advantage has completely been completely negated by our inability to get 80 to 90% of our children involved in any prganized sports activity. I thjink of India as a country of about 50 to 100 million people when it comes to sports. We should atr least be able to do what countries of that size does in international sports. And without doping.

Jay

prasen9 · Post by **prasen9** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:58 am

I have long thought the answer is to have a subject called "Sports" or "Physical Education" in school and a subject that is included in your marks for the Board exams. While that will not solve everything, that should at least identify the "freaks" early and maybe some of them will get the support for developing.

-pm

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:29 am

have long thought the answer is to have a subject called "Sports" or "Physical Education" in school and a subject that is included in your marks for the Board exams.

I could not agree with you more, prasen9.

I went to a school in India where sports was one of the subjects in class and the grades were equal to other subjects, and I had to play 1 1/2 hours of sports every day including one day before the final exams! Some of my classmates were very gifted athletes but once they finished 12th grade, their futures were not very bright because most Indian universities (especially in Uttar Pradesh) do not properly nurture athletic talents, and being not very good in studies offered them little good paying job prospects. Some of them went to Australia, others became school teachers in private schools in India and some went to the Middle-East.

However, making sports mandatory in Indian schools also requires having proper sports facilities and coaches. I was lucky to attend a school that had two indoor Olympic size swimming pools, separate rugby, hockey and football fields, a shooting range, several table tennis tables, gymnastic facility, etc. The founder, a Frenchman, left a lot of money to the school in his will.

bobbyaloysius · Post by **bobbyaloysius** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:41 pm

I am very sad to see that it is too late me to know about this forum.
Now I am crazy about sports-india.com. At least once I am going through a day.
This is the most interesting subjecting you ever discuss.
There is a lot for me to say about it. But as I still need the the same government, the same federation and same officials through out my life I am not going to say much. But one thing I can say. There are not many athletes in India doing their event without the support of performance enhancing stuffs. Very very few. If you use your fingers to count the clean atheltes among the 19 member strong Indian Athens squad, you don't need to use just one arm! Who knows about them? Of course the federation, SAI and other concerned officials. Then the few disappointed people like me, the great journalists like K.P.Mohan, probably the mysterius mugu and David!

Post by **jayakris** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:30 pm

Ah, good that you bring up KP Mohan, Bobby. One of the oldest members of the Paes-Bhupathi fanclub (not sure if he reads the forum here, but he used to occasionally show up in our chat rooms during some tennis matches - even gave commentary during one of the Davis Cups or something to all of us in our chatroom).

Yes, KPM is one who knows his stuff when it comes to the doping issue (and many other things). I remember his curious one-liner in the Hindu article where he hinted something very mildy after Sunitha Rani's big run at the Asiad (more like saying "you will hear something soon"). Hell broke loose a couple of days later and of course KP Mohan had some of the best articles on the whole issue during that time (and later too).

Hey, mugu, don't tell us you are KPM .. (I don't think so!)

Jay

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:36 pm

Bobby,

If you visit the thread about the 2004 Olympic Games, you will find our discussion of the Indian athletes and the possibilities of some of them having taken illegal drugs. mugu, by staying anonymous, has been outspoken on this subject and has informed the forum members about some of the athletes even before their performance or more importantly their lack of performance at Athens became known to the rest of the world.

I was surprised when the Indian Sports Minister, Mr Sunil Dutt, declared to the media before the team left for Athens that none of the Indian sportsmen and sportswomen were on illegal drugs.

Although I appreciate your frankness on this subject and I feel that you are among the handful who have not used performance enhancing drugs, it is possible that your comments may be mistaken by some Indian sports authorities.

Hey, mugu, don't tell us you are KPM ..

Don't worry Jay, I am sending my spy (wife) to New Delhi shortly to check out if mugu and KP Mohan are the same or not.

bobbyaloysius · Post by **bobbyaloysius** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:02 am

As long as Mugu doesn't want to disclose who he is, it is not fare enough we are discussing about him. Regrdless of his identity, he is the best contributer to this forum. It is natural in Indian atheltics if someone write very clearly about something, suddenly the concerened people think it is KPM as he is the ever best Indian athletic journalist. He is a an encyclopedia of athletics. If he is Mugu, I don't really want to know about it. I like to know both of them as different personalities.
Please leave him alone

david · Post by **david** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:15 am

I thought I will never bring this subject. Since Jay has raised it, I will put in my thoughts.

I always thought Mugu as KP Mohan.

Though, I am not an athletics reporter, I have had the pleasure of reporting athletics a couple of times and also had the benefit of big athletics journalists like Norris Pritam, Ramu Sharma and V Krishnaswamy, who all worked in my paper Express sometime or the other. Apart from that I admire and honestly desire to follow great men like KP Mohan. He is an authority on the subject and his reports always enlightened many of us. He talks sense and knows what he is writing. Actually, once I suggested that people like him should be put in the panel that investigates doping crimes.

I have done a bit of investigation but failed to find out if Mugu is really KP. I eliminated my freind Mageshwaran, who is also a knowledgeable sports reporter and presently sports editor in Bangalore.

So eagerly waiting for Bhushanji to come up with fact-finding report and wish his wife all the best

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