Surprising that we don't have a thread yet for the 17-year-old who is the National Men's singles champion! I think that alone (the fact that he is national champion at 17) justifies having a thread for him.
I had a long chat with Rethin's father, Senthil Kumar, on Saturday in New Delhi, and wanted to post it on his thread -- and was surprised to find that we hadn't started one for him yet. Rethin started the year ranked 36 among world juniors, and will be ranked around 30 going into the Australian Open next week. I think a thread for him is completely justified. Rethin has won a J100 title in Poland, made the final of a J300 in Korea (where some egregious line calls denied him the title), and has a string of other good performances (including a win over ATP 530 Agofonov last month in an M25, where he made the QF). He is only 4 months older than Manas Dhamne, for whom we already have a thread (because he was a phenom at 14).
Rethin lost his mother when he was less than 4 years old, and his father and grandparents (especially maternal grandfather) have been the keys to his tennis development. He is from Karur, a home-textile manufacturing and exporting town, and that is the family's line of business. (His father has now branched out into the hotel business). TNTA has started taking interest in him since he became national champion, and he is now part of their elite training program.
He played the J300 in Delhi despite the fact that he has had minor surgery on his left thumb less than 5 weeks ago, and had hardly lifted a racquet for 2-3 weeks. He wanted to play this week just to get some match-play before the Australian Open juniors, for which he is setting off today (Monday 13th). Next year, Rethin will be going to Cornell University. I was surprised at his choice of an Ivy League school, but it was a considered decision. Penn, Princeton and Columbia were others who were pursuing him, but he picked Cornell because there are 5 Futures and 2 Challengers at or on the campus for which he has been promised preferential entry. He and his family are serious about his academics, but want him to follow Nishesh's approach -- turning pro in 2, 3 or 4 years depending on the progress he makes in tennis. Before going to college at Cornell, of course, he will have the chance to play all four Slam juniors this year.
Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
Moderator: Moderators
-
jayakris
- Moderators
- Posts: 38081
- Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:24 am
- Antispam: No
- Please enter the middle number: 5
- Location: Irvine, CA, USA
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 239 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
No PKB. PLEEEASE. Let us stick to the rules and some criterion. A national championship is not a criterion. There is not much discussion on rethin that cannot go into existing threads. No need for a player thread for Rethin now.
Let me explain the main point. The threads are needed when there is discussion on them. It is not some trophy to acknowledge players. The national championship did not cause much discussion on Rethin, and so no need to break the rules and have a thread. Once we have such a thread, we should refer (with links) to the player threads on where their results are discussed in other threads; something that I do whenever I can, but not too consistently as it is a lot of work.
Player threads sitting there and their results or news not being found in them, is bad - for new readers and lurkers, and players themselves, who check the thread and find that nobody is discussing them while they are being discussed, albeit elsewhere. THIS is the reason why I oppose starting such player threads. Rethin or a friend/family of his may look here 5 months from now, say, and see that his results from junior grand slams were not discussed, and might think nobody cared for Rethin. You need to think of that aspect. So a "trophy thread" or a thread to acknowledge talent/quality like you often start, has a negative side to it too. I don't think I ever explained this aspect before, though I always had that concern.
This forum actually has a lot of casual readers and player parents. They can't keep up with where we discuss the results and players. Let us not just start threads and make it look like we didn't care for the players later, with no discussions on them.
Then let me explain a sub-plot behind our criteria. The criteria we have are generally to make sure that discussions on a player do not go to "miscellaneous threads" and other places. When they win their first a pro title, they typically separate themselves from those who are generally in their range of rankings. So, their results could earlier go into event threads with those other players before, but it might not be so after the title. They often end up going to separate events, in many cases by themselves, trying to move further up. This often happens after a title, and did happen in the case of those like Mukund, Niki, Pranjala, Karman, Sahaja, etc. They may make some higher events where they would be the only Indian. Another case is a rise to a high enough ranking -- the Karan situation; which caused us to add "top-4 and within top-500" to the criteria. Notice that he is not "with the crowd," for the time being, on his schedule. That is what the criterion does.
Yet another case is a very significant junior achievement, causing such "separation" in the junior tour. Sameer recently suggested winning a J300 as a criterion, for this reason. I would agree, and perhaps we should adjust the criterion for junior results also. But it would also need an age factor, which will be different for boys and girls, and J200 at 14 for girls and 15 for boys, and J300 at 15/16 might work (not sure). Need some thinking. Notice that the Yuvan thread you started when he won a J300 at 17, caused zero further posts for like over a year, and there are still not many posts there.
On the other hand some junior work by Manas and Maaya have been impressive at very young ages, and they moved to "separate paths" and events where they were alone, requiring us to have threads for them, to avoid cluttering up the miscellaneous results threads like "junior circuit abroad".
With Manas and Maaya, we Mods did not object vehemently and let the thread stay there, as there were discussions going on, and they were both doing their own things without the company of other Indians.
National championship is an achievement, but as it has no ranking relevance, it does not allow him to separate himself (from Kriish for instance) in the juniors, and he is not in the picture for pro events either. So, not much separate news, score reports, or discussion on Rethin are expected, and we do not need for a thread for him.
Now let us say that Rethin reaches the FO junior semifinal and Wimbledon Final. He will separate himself (will probably drop the plan for college tennis and all that) and start his own journey into the pros and will probably win an M15 title and we will need a thread as he goes by himself on the tour (also see how Nishesh's thread started). We will surely need a thread for Rethin then, because we cannot keep reporting in the "Misc.Results" threads, like happened in Karan's case - which led to us adjusting the criterion to include a notable rise to a high ranking level without a title.
None of that logic applies to a National Championship. It is an achievement. We should laud Rethin for that. But the threads are not some trophy from us.
Maybe we should start a "trophy or award thread" series, to use our judgment and acknowledge talent and accomplishments even if we do not have enough discussions on them to warrant individual player threads. We should explicitly state that their results and other news will NOT be discussed in those threads. But then you only need one thread and we can just award acknowledgements in one or two posts when any of them do something great like Rethin did at Fenesta and can keep a running list of "Sports-india award list of noted performers, talents, future prospects"
But let us stick to the criterion for starting player threads - "A pro title, or a ranking inside 500 and India top-4".
Let me explain the main point. The threads are needed when there is discussion on them. It is not some trophy to acknowledge players. The national championship did not cause much discussion on Rethin, and so no need to break the rules and have a thread. Once we have such a thread, we should refer (with links) to the player threads on where their results are discussed in other threads; something that I do whenever I can, but not too consistently as it is a lot of work.
Player threads sitting there and their results or news not being found in them, is bad - for new readers and lurkers, and players themselves, who check the thread and find that nobody is discussing them while they are being discussed, albeit elsewhere. THIS is the reason why I oppose starting such player threads. Rethin or a friend/family of his may look here 5 months from now, say, and see that his results from junior grand slams were not discussed, and might think nobody cared for Rethin. You need to think of that aspect. So a "trophy thread" or a thread to acknowledge talent/quality like you often start, has a negative side to it too. I don't think I ever explained this aspect before, though I always had that concern.
This forum actually has a lot of casual readers and player parents. They can't keep up with where we discuss the results and players. Let us not just start threads and make it look like we didn't care for the players later, with no discussions on them.
Then let me explain a sub-plot behind our criteria. The criteria we have are generally to make sure that discussions on a player do not go to "miscellaneous threads" and other places. When they win their first a pro title, they typically separate themselves from those who are generally in their range of rankings. So, their results could earlier go into event threads with those other players before, but it might not be so after the title. They often end up going to separate events, in many cases by themselves, trying to move further up. This often happens after a title, and did happen in the case of those like Mukund, Niki, Pranjala, Karman, Sahaja, etc. They may make some higher events where they would be the only Indian. Another case is a rise to a high enough ranking -- the Karan situation; which caused us to add "top-4 and within top-500" to the criteria. Notice that he is not "with the crowd," for the time being, on his schedule. That is what the criterion does.
Yet another case is a very significant junior achievement, causing such "separation" in the junior tour. Sameer recently suggested winning a J300 as a criterion, for this reason. I would agree, and perhaps we should adjust the criterion for junior results also. But it would also need an age factor, which will be different for boys and girls, and J200 at 14 for girls and 15 for boys, and J300 at 15/16 might work (not sure). Need some thinking. Notice that the Yuvan thread you started when he won a J300 at 17, caused zero further posts for like over a year, and there are still not many posts there.
On the other hand some junior work by Manas and Maaya have been impressive at very young ages, and they moved to "separate paths" and events where they were alone, requiring us to have threads for them, to avoid cluttering up the miscellaneous results threads like "junior circuit abroad".
With Manas and Maaya, we Mods did not object vehemently and let the thread stay there, as there were discussions going on, and they were both doing their own things without the company of other Indians.
National championship is an achievement, but as it has no ranking relevance, it does not allow him to separate himself (from Kriish for instance) in the juniors, and he is not in the picture for pro events either. So, not much separate news, score reports, or discussion on Rethin are expected, and we do not need for a thread for him.
Now let us say that Rethin reaches the FO junior semifinal and Wimbledon Final. He will separate himself (will probably drop the plan for college tennis and all that) and start his own journey into the pros and will probably win an M15 title and we will need a thread as he goes by himself on the tour (also see how Nishesh's thread started). We will surely need a thread for Rethin then, because we cannot keep reporting in the "Misc.Results" threads, like happened in Karan's case - which led to us adjusting the criterion to include a notable rise to a high ranking level without a title.
None of that logic applies to a National Championship. It is an achievement. We should laud Rethin for that. But the threads are not some trophy from us.
Maybe we should start a "trophy or award thread" series, to use our judgment and acknowledge talent and accomplishments even if we do not have enough discussions on them to warrant individual player threads. We should explicitly state that their results and other news will NOT be discussed in those threads. But then you only need one thread and we can just award acknowledgements in one or two posts when any of them do something great like Rethin did at Fenesta and can keep a running list of "Sports-india award list of noted performers, talents, future prospects"
But let us stick to the criterion for starting player threads - "A pro title, or a ranking inside 500 and India top-4".
-
PKBasu
- Member
- Posts: 38217
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
- Please enter the middle number: 1
- Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
- Has thanked: 83 times
- Been thanked: 98 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
Contrary to the general impression, I do not unthinkingly start threads for players. I did not start one for Karan Singh, for instance, because I saw him lose to RamK in the M25 final in New Delhi a year ago, and found that his net play was atrocious. He addressed that, playing doubles, duly won a tournament outside India and deserved a thread. The only one I regret starting is Tejasvi Dabas, which has rightly been locked (as there appear to be age issues with her). The other one (to which nobody objected) was Shruti Ahlawat, who has simply vanished for two years (after breaking into the junior top-50 when she was 15+). By contrast, Vaishnavi Adkar at 19 showed enough potential to deserve a thread when I started it (you said DK Suresh had done the same thing in singles -- but at 24, NOT at 19; it was doubles that got DKS his thread, in my opinion, when he made the SF of an ATP tour event).
Apart from winning a pro tournament, I (we, hopefully) use judgement based on age to start a thread. Winning the National singles title at 17 is big enough for me (even if it doesn't garner points on the ATP tour). Ramesh, Leander (and Sunil Kumar Sipaeya) won it at 16, but 17 isn't far behind, and is a signal of genuine potential. Rethin has also shown his abilities on the pro tour, beating a foreign player ranked around 530. He is ranked marginally above Kriish Tyagi too among juniors, and the latter has yet to garner an ATP ranking. He will be playing the Slam juniors this year, and will mix in a few pro events along the way, so there will be a lot to write about him over the course of the year. I don't think we will regret starting this thread.
Apart from winning a pro tournament, I (we, hopefully) use judgement based on age to start a thread. Winning the National singles title at 17 is big enough for me (even if it doesn't garner points on the ATP tour). Ramesh, Leander (and Sunil Kumar Sipaeya) won it at 16, but 17 isn't far behind, and is a signal of genuine potential. Rethin has also shown his abilities on the pro tour, beating a foreign player ranked around 530. He is ranked marginally above Kriish Tyagi too among juniors, and the latter has yet to garner an ATP ranking. He will be playing the Slam juniors this year, and will mix in a few pro events along the way, so there will be a lot to write about him over the course of the year. I don't think we will regret starting this thread.
-
jayakris
- Moderators
- Posts: 38081
- Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:24 am
- Antispam: No
- Please enter the middle number: 5
- Location: Irvine, CA, USA
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 239 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
^^^ I never object to your judgment on which player needs a thread. For instance, you have not started a thread for Kriish who is ranked above Rethin - and I would agree with that. We will quite surely need a thread for Rethin later, but I am slightly unsure if it is the same for Kriish. Yes, all but the Tejasvi one were threads that I knew would be needed at some point. But if he is going to college, which means he won't meet the pro criterion, this Rethin thread won't be needed for 2-3 years! That is all.
In any event, I (and most other readers here too) don't for a minute feel that you start threads without thinking. Don't worry about it. You pick players very carefully; no doubt. That is not the issue.
But please read the long explanation I gave above, about the negative side of starting threads and not having activity there. The criteria we have, all said and done, are there for that reason - though my own thinking on that was not as clear before as it is now, so I never explained it before. It is simply not good to have threads sitting there for players, without any discussions, as it would look like we had forgotten them, while we might be discussing them in so many other threads. So, please wait till the criteria is met - because we have almost always found that the threads get discussions after the criteria are met (though it may die out later because the player regressed, got injured, etc - like in SSR's case)
In any event, I (and most other readers here too) don't for a minute feel that you start threads without thinking. Don't worry about it. You pick players very carefully; no doubt. That is not the issue.
But please read the long explanation I gave above, about the negative side of starting threads and not having activity there. The criteria we have, all said and done, are there for that reason - though my own thinking on that was not as clear before as it is now, so I never explained it before. It is simply not good to have threads sitting there for players, without any discussions, as it would look like we had forgotten them, while we might be discussing them in so many other threads. So, please wait till the criteria is met - because we have almost always found that the threads get discussions after the criteria are met (though it may die out later because the player regressed, got injured, etc - like in SSR's case)
-
PKBasu
- Member
- Posts: 38217
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
- Please enter the middle number: 1
- Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
- Has thanked: 83 times
- Been thanked: 98 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
Good point about his plan to go to US college. But note that he has picked Cornell precisely because they will have 5 Futures and 2 Challengers on the campus. He will also be playing all four Slam juniors this year, and mixing in a few pro tournaments. So the thread will be active this year, and he is likely to continue playing tour events even after going to college, so this thread will not sit idle.
-
jayakris
- Moderators
- Posts: 38081
- Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:24 am
- Antispam: No
- Please enter the middle number: 5
- Location: Irvine, CA, USA
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 239 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
^^^ Okay, so we are not taking out the thread. Hopefully we will need it sooner than later.
-
jayakris
- Moderators
- Posts: 38081
- Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:24 am
- Antispam: No
- Please enter the middle number: 5
- Location: Irvine, CA, USA
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 239 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
^^^ Then why start the thread at all? Start it when there is a reasonable chance for some discussions (our simple criterion generally does the job for that) so we won't have to make any thread "inactive".
-
Atithee
- Member
- Posts: 6612
- Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:14 pm
- Has thanked: 77 times
- Been thanked: 79 times
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
That was a joke, Jay.jayakris wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:22 pm ^^^ Then why start the thread at all? Start it when there is a reasonable chance for some discussions (our simple criterion generally does the job for that) so we won't have to make any thread "inactive".
-
PKBasu
- Member
- Posts: 38217
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
- Please enter the middle number: 1
- Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
- Has thanked: 83 times
- Been thanked: 98 times
- Contact:
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
Rethin has been focusing on his school final exams, which ended last week (TN board; he was in an IB program earlier, but shifted to a sports-focused school affiliated to the TN local board). He will return to the pro circuit next week at the Bangalore M25 (planning to play qualifiers). I hope he gets a main draw wild card. After that, he will go to Malaysia to play higher level juniors to shore up the junior ranking (which has come down to 52 during his inactivity), and then play junior events in Italy in preparation for the French Open juniors, followed by Wimbledon. His Cornell coach will join him at the US Open juniors.
-
sameerph
- Moderators
- Posts: 34808
- Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
- Antispam: No
- Please enter the middle number: 5
- Location: MUMBAI
- Has thanked: 46 times
- Been thanked: 151 times
Re: Rethin Pranav Senthil Kumar thread
Rethin is not in the qualifying draw at Bangalore M25. I guess he got a main draw wild card.PKBasu wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 7:19 am Rethin has been focusing on his school final exams, which ended last week (TN board; he was in an IB program earlier, but shifted to a sports-focused school affiliated to the TN local board). He will return to the pro circuit next week at the Bangalore M25 (planning to play qualifiers). I hope he gets a main draw wild card.