2023 Men's FIH Hockey Junior World Cup, Malaysia

[sameerph]

France beats Australia 3-2. Is this an upset?

A minor upset as France have been very competitive at U21 level for a over a decade. They beat us twice at the last JWC and quite easily too.

Yes, France also beat Germany by 2 goals in group stage. They were also bronze medalists in last junior world cup. So, maybe they have good juniors and can come up the ranks like Belgium did about 10 or so years back after which they have been a force in mens world hockey.

Surprisingly, Australia have reached SF only once in last 4 junior world cups since 2009 and have not reached the final. Has their talent pipeline drying up ?

[jayakris]

On a separate note, we have lost Saffron Lenin from this forum. His contributions were most welcome.

Very sad. We have a tendency to forget that the newcomers are not used to how we old-timers go on criticizing each other and arguing. The 20 or 30 old timers do the arguing and getting on each others' throats knowing that none of it is personal, with a lot of unstated respect for what each member brings here. But newcomers do not know that and can be very sensitive to criticism. They might not know that there is nothing deep behind harsh-sounding words, that they are basically for "effect," and that anybody who has made more than 5 or 10 posts here on any topic is first and foremost appreciated by all others for their being here regardless of any disagreement in opinions. That last part is often not stated, but is understood by old-timers. Maybe we should say that more often to newcomers.

It is when somebody like Saffron comes and leaves ("like a candle in the wind") that we miss him or her.

[prasen9]

I am sorry. I will try to be more careful with the newcomers.

If Belgium can do it, then France can do it too with proper planning, getting a few coaches, etc. They are neighbors as are they to Germany and Netherlands. They have the same physique and fitness infrastructure. And, modern hockey, since the astroturf age is about fitness and coaching. Less about stick skills. So, it is easier to learn and become good at, imho.

[ssp]

Saffron Lenin had a great passion for hockey and that's the best asset to have! He posted so many times about domestic hockey too. Was it his name that caused issues?

If Belgium can do it, then France can do it too with proper planning, getting a few coaches, etc. They are neighbors as are they to Germany and Netherlands. They have the same physique and fitness infrastructure. And, modern hockey, since the astroturf age is about fitness and coaching. Less about stick skills. So, it is easier to learn and become good at, imho.

Prasen, you are spot on. Physique and fitness infrastructure helps a lot, but speed and good formations (to allow easy/safe passes from defence etc) are vital. The other big factor is decision making under pressure, which we are pretty bad at. Then, there's the maddening habit of picking up needless cards is a speciality of all Indian teams- men, women, senior or junior.

If we get on to the podium, it'll be a great achievement. I'm hoping we can repeat our 1997 JWC run.

[Atithee]

I’m not sure Saffron has left. I think he posted even after all the uncalled for criticism. It was really a poor treatment. The forum is poor for it.

@Saffron Lenin—please confirm your presence. We hope you’ll continue to participate at your usual level in the forum. We need more members like you.

[prasen9]

I stand by that the comments were called for. Calling it uncalled for is an abomination. In the same sentence, he said men and girls referring to junior men and junior women. If people are going to keep defending that, then we should have the right to call out that discrimination.

It is one thing to let things go. It is another thing to say that that is correct and the response was not. The response could have been less vigorous. But, calling out that duplicity was fine.

Where do we draw the line if we want to let every abominable comment go? Sorry!

I think the better way is to call a truce but that means both sides should stop commenting on things. If one side keeps commenting on things, the other has a right to respond.

[Atithee]

Prasen, you could do that in direct message to him/her. No need to go on and on in public. Once was enough. Anyway, you decide what you want to do. Criticism has a place but has to be done right. I also stand by my position that it could and should have been handled better.

[prasen9]

Saffron Lenin had a great passion for hockey and that's the best asset to have! He posted so many times about domestic hockey too. Was it his name that caused issues?

I don't think his name per se. I think there were issues in the chess forum where he was posting some lazily written articles that were factually wrong and people called that out. Then his calling junior men and junior women, men and girls in the same sentence. And, he did not like being called out. That is my reading.

In another instance, Mugu called out Haryana athletes. And, he took exception to that. I defended Mugu. Etc.

[prasen9]

Prasen, you could do that in direct message to him/her. No need to go on and on in public. Once was enough. Anyway, you decide what you want to do. Criticism has a place but has to be done right. I also stand by my position that it could and should have been handled better.

I agree that it could and should have been handled better. Perhaps one could message him and then if he did not take out the belittling of women by calling them girls while in the same sentence calling men men, then perhaps we should have gone on in public. I did not realize that calling it out in public would be such a sensitive thing for him. Sorry about that.

Also, I did not go on and on just by myself. I almost always responded to a response to my response. So, without a respond to my response, I would not have responded further. As here. If someone tries to defned him with logic that I think is warped and makes no sense to me, I call it out.

[prasen9]

If Belgium can do it, then France can do it too with proper planning, getting a few coaches, etc. They are neighbors as are they to Germany and Netherlands. They have the same physique and fitness infrastructure. And, modern hockey, since the astroturf age is about fitness and coaching. Less about stick skills. So, it is easier to learn and become good at, imho.

Prasen, you are spot on. Physique and fitness infrastructure helps a lot, but speed and good formations (to allow easy/safe passes from defence etc) are vital. The other big factor is decision making under pressure, which we are pretty bad at. Then, there's the maddening habit of picking up needless cards is a speciality of all Indian teams- men, women, senior or junior.
...

ssp, speed is a function of a) athleticism and fitness, and b) game sense - good formations come in here. This latter is about coaching. That is why I called out coaching. Coaches should plan and practice to help players understand the game and have some idea of how to get into good formations.

Wrt decision making under pressure, I lumped it under coaching too. But, you could say a psychologist would be the one who would assist in this case. The ability to manage one's emotions, etc. to avoid needless cards come under this. The mental coach would perhaps have to be the same person, perhaps for smaller teams in lower levels.

So, France has the infrastructure to get the basics going. And, with the right people and planning, they could perhaps come up as another Belgium in a few years. This is sort of like Argentina coming up in the 2000s. Does anyone know what caused their hockey to take a jump? Or did they just have a good team around 2014-16 and were about 7-9 before and are still the same?

[sameerph]

If you see their record in olympics and world cups, Argentina were between 7th to 11th place mostly all along right from 70's. Their big moments came in 2014 when they got to 3rd and than in 2016 Rio olympics where they won the gold. So, they had their best team was at that time. But, now they are back to their earlier level- 7th in 2018 world cup, 7th in Tokyo Olympics and 9th in this year's world cup. So, it was a short spurt probably led by few outstanding players in mid 2010's.

On the other hand, Belgium had a quantum leap. They did not even qualify for olympics from 1980 to 2004 and were later around 9th-11th before 2016 olympics where they won silver, 2018 world cup where they won the title, 2020 olympics where they won gold and this year's world cup where they were runners up. So, last 4 major events in last 7 years they have been in top 2 from almost nowhere in the years before that.

[prasen9]

Right. The chances are more that France will have a resurgence like Argentina if these juniors pan out. They may not win an Olympic gold or come #3 but will be top 6-7 maybe, which for France will be a quantum leap. Then, whether they can be a Belgium depends upon their infrastructure and system being able to sustain that. Let us see.

[ssp]

We lost badly to Germany yet again. 4-1 this time.

I was fearing a 3-4 goal defeat and as usual, we obliged! Wasted 12 PCs but that can happen on some days. I don't think we have much chance of a bronze as the other 2 teams are potentially even stronger than Germany. Spain have already beaten us 4-1 in the pool stages.

Our defence was simply not good enough to deserve better than a semi final place

[Kumar]

I

I am guilty of calling women girls when talking about sports teams. We have our cricket coaches call Indian team boys all the time. To be frank, I don’t think I have ever used the term boys. Is it prejudice?

I did not realize that it can be considered condescending. I would give Saffron benefit of doubt. I think there is heightened sensitivity to lot of phrases and more you are aware better it is for you professionally and personally. For example, I have heard that calling people black may be considered offensive, so I avoid that. But probably use white more liberally.

Well chalk this up to learning something new in the forum.

[sameerph]

France beats Spain 3-1 in the other SF. So, we play Spain again for bronze medal. Germany vs France in the final.