World Test Championship final 2021-23 (The Oval)

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Great to see Kartik Tyagi bowling around 148 kph. Now here is the question, Tyagi has been automatic choice in Indian team as a net bowler, as a result he has missed a good amount of domestic cricket and hence not picked for India A. So, who is responsible for not grooming this talent properly. Doesn't he deserve automatic selection for India A team ?

One thing we know for sure, he should be nowhere near T20Is at this point. He has been awful. 37.71@9.26. For the other formats, the team should make an appropriate call.

If we can tolerate Umesh, Harshal Patel leaking runs @9.18 with no gurantee with the bat, then there should'nt be any problem in investing on youngstar bowling with some pace. SRH franchise has just destroyed his confidence by playing only 2 games.Harshal can't be picked for T20I WC just relying on pitch

I think he has got very long list of bowlers who are crap & awful in T20Is. Avesh, Umran, Charak, Kuldeep Sen, Tyagi, doesn't know who fits in for T20I for him except that proven & tested Bhuvi, Harshal half baller & batter Deepak & Shardul.

[prasen9]

Just look at the performance this IPL. The top bowlers (pace) are: Siraj, Shami.

When Bumrah returns, he slots in - but maybe rotate between him and these two.

The next performers are: Ishant, Arshdeep, Bhuvi, (Yudhvir Singh but not given enough chances), Tushar Deshpande, Yash Thakur.

The 3rd pacer needs to bat. So, there is really no option but to go with perhaps Bhuvi. Ideally, we just slot in Hardik as the third pacer and play three spinners: Axar, Jadeja, and Piyush/Varun/Ashwin.

So, we do not really need to give absolute crappy bowlers chances just because we gave some crap chances before. The older generation may be crap but replacing them with crappier bowlers who cannot even bowl well in domestics is stupidity. Replacing crap with crappier never improves anything.

We need to give the performers: Arshdeep, Desphande, Yudhvir (giving him the benefit of doubt that he has improved because of his 3 matches in this year's IPL but he needs to show consistency; anyway give him A-team chances), and Yash Thakur chances in A-team tours. The rest need to learn to bowl better before the should be considered.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Just look at the performance this IPL. The top bowlers (pace) are: Siraj, Shami.

When Bumrah returns, he slots in - but maybe rotate between him and these two.

The next performers are: Ishant, Arshdeep, Bhuvi, (Yudhvir Singh but not given enough chances), Tushar Deshpande, Yash Thakur.

The 3rd pacer needs to bat. So, there is really no option but to go with perhaps Bhuvi. Ideally, we just slot in Hardik as the third pacer and play three spinners: Axar, Jadeja, and Piyush/Varun/Ashwin

Going back to Ishant, Bhuvi, Chawla means again giving these proven WC failures another go. If selectors have decided to move on these players should'nt be considered like Kohli & Rohit.

So, we do not really need to give absolute crappy bowlers chances just because we gave some crap chances before. The older generation may be crap but replacing them with crappier bowlers who cannot even bowl well in domestics is stupidity. Replacing crap with crappier never improves anything.

Bumrah injured, Shami & Siraj workload issue, then who are other two indian bowlers with Arshdeep in T20Is if Umran, Charak, Avesh & co. are crappy

We need to give the performers: Arshdeep, Desphande, Yudhvir (giving him the benefit of doubt that he has improved because of his 3 matches in this year's IPL but he needs to show consistency; anyway give him A-team chances), and Yash Thakur chances in A-team tours. The rest need to learn to bowl better before the should be considered.

Avesh, Umran, Kuldeep, Charak If all bowlers plays in A team then who are the future to be groomed through T20Is. How T20I bowlers will be picked based on List A, four dayers ?
as there is no T20 games takes place in A tours .

[prasen9]

There needs to be T20 games in A-tours. Until then, the IPL has to be the yardstick. Failures in the IPL should not be rewarded.

I would prefer the so-called failures in international cricket to total failures in all T20 cricket. Especially, proven failure who even failed to move his team from last place to second last place. If you want to play the proven-failure game, it is so easy to play that game at the domestics with these failed bowlers. The point is that our bowling has been largely okay in international tournaments. Our batting has been sub-par wrt SR.

So, Siraj, Shami, Ishant, and Bhuvi along with Piyush should be played in the world cups unless someone emerges from the craps to knowing how to bowl basic line and length. Change for the sake of change is useless. Now, I don't mind giving a chance to Arshdeep, Deshpande, and someone who can bowl and bat a bit in the next T20 international matches but unless they prove themselves, we should not replace our top bowlers with more-failed bowlers. Arshdeep for Ishant is okay.

Players need to earn their India caps. When you give undeserving players a chance, they think they are the next cool thing after sliced bread. They demand more overs while failing to see that the team is not a charity to help the other team win. No point to change crap with crappier.

Now, wrt batting, the scenario is different. I would prefer Gill, Gaikwad, Yashasvi, Kohli, SkAY, Prabhsimran.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Shami, Ishant, and Bhuvi along with Piyush should be played in the world cups

Yes, lets allow them to play all ICC events till Yash Dhull retires, make a world record in playing most ICC events for India and loosing all knockouts

[Mukherjee Babu]

Thats a terrible demand....they laid the team down in every ICC events since 2013 and you want them for more selection just for IPL.

[prasen9]

Absolutely. People who perform better should be in the team. People who do not should not. Simple. Replacing failures at international level with failures at all levels is stupid.

I have put up a challenge. Your silence is deafening and shows the fallacy of your arguments. How many domestic failures have won world cups for their teams? List them.

Most world cup winners have "failed" to win the world cup many times before succeeding for the first time.

What is terrible is to demand players who have been failures at all levels to replace successful players at lower levels who may have failed at higher levels. More often that not abroad our bowlers have done well. The batters have failed us. We have 3-4 good batters coming up. Use them to replace the old batters. The older bowlers get to play until there is any player who is good at the lower level and proves them to be winners. I have no problem trying out winners at the lower levels. I have problem trying out proven failures at the lower levels at the higher levels.

No freebies to our bowlers until they succeed at the lower levels. No charity. No proven failures.

[prasen9]

Shami, Ishant, and Bhuvi along with Piyush should be played in the world cups

Yes, lets allow them to play all ICC events till Yash Dhull retires, make a world record in playing most ICC events for India and loosing all knockouts

If that is your strategy that is your strategy. There are way more ICC events these days and thus players will make records. Playing failures in the domestics to have players making records of losing all knockouts not only in the world cups but also in all domestic cups is your choice.

My strategy is to choose the best available team based on performance. We should not be agists or any sort of fetishists. Just look at performance and choose the best. Of course, have a strategy to train, coach, etc. younger players. But, chosing losers will ensure longer stretches of knockout failures and that is not my strategy. The best team always. No charity. No domestic losers.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Shami, Ishant, and Bhuvi along with Piyush should be played in the world cups

Yes, lets allow them to play all ICC events till Yash Dhull retires, make a world record in playing most ICC events for India and loosing all knockouts

If that is your strategy that is your strategy. There are way more ICC events these days and thus players will make records. Playing failures in the domestics to have players making records of losing all knockouts not only in the world cups but also in all domestic cups is your choice.

My strategy is to choose the best available team based on performance. We should not be agists or any sort of fetishists. Just look at performance and choose the best. Of course, have a strategy to train, coach, etc. younger players. But, chosing losers will ensure longer stretches of knockout failures and that is not my strategy. The best team always. No charity. No domestic losers.

My strategy is now simple, will choose only talented youngstars in the team in ICC events, who will take the team out of curse from loosing 8 back to back ICC events happened because of our best, superstars, so called experienced players. We have chosen teams based on "performance" in 8 back to back ICC events and won nothing, thats clearly a highly failed strategy

[prasen9]

Chosing failures never results in success. Of course, you are very welcome to choose a whole bus full of failures. And, in your fantasy world they will win whatever you want them to win. In reality, it is never going to happen.

No team ever won by choosing a bunch of young domestic failures. No team ever will.

We have never chosen on performance. We choose based on who looks sexy and we choose based on star power. That never has worked and will barely work. We need to choose based on performance.

[Mukherjee Babu]

I would definately back both views, for that to happen board should resume A tours and bring back Deodhar or Challenger Trophy 50 over format.

[prasen9]

Exactly. The team will look a lot better if we back good T20I batters: Gill, Gaikwad, Yashasvi, NTTV. Drop the old guard: Rohit, Rahul, etc. Keep SkAY and Kohli along with the young guard. Get Prabhsimran to compete with Kishan.

I am okay if we give the young batters and bowlers (who have not performed) more chances in T20Is since we do not have A-team tours, etc. against weaker countries first and then stronger. The batters can go against anyone but the bowlers need better handling. My point is not that I don't want the Avesh Khan, Umran's to succeed. But, see what happened with Avesh? He was tried in the wrong format. He was tried in T20Is without learning to bowl in that format. Now, we junked him.

All of us on this forum want India to win the cup. All of us do not want non-performing seniors. I am saying mindless foisting of juniors will not get us anything. All of us want more exposure to them.

I think all except one of us wants the juniors to be given A-tours etc. and want more of them. Maybe one person wants to take the next guy off the high school team, a losing team at that, and put them in the WTC final.

Anyway, Australia starts as favorite. Pujara and Rahane and perhaps even Kohli know that this is their last big chance. If they come with a never-say-die attitude in the finals, we may have a chance. Let us see.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Since you are a great admirer and loudspoken about performances and domestic cricket, answer few question.

What happened to Karun Nair ? How much Sarfaraz Khan needs to score to get picked in Indian test playing XI ?
Sarfaraz 's massive performance has become << Rahane 's failure + one season domestic score + IPL. Its so much easy to make a comeback in the name of experience for a Mumbai lobby player whereas great like Ganguly had to wait after his contemporary failed. What happened to the players of Sri Lanka tour 2020 ( Padikkal, Gowtham, Sakariya, Rana) who were picked based on performances and were never seen again, though we had games against weaker opposition and they could have been picked.Why Upendra Yadav doesnt gets picked despite having more average then Ishan & Bharat ? Where is Panchal, Easwaran, Nadeem ? Ankit Bawne & Sheldon Jackson has been destroyed with 50+ & 48 + FC average whereas SKY is getting chance before them with less FC average. You can't drop a player for fun without giving them proper chance. If domestic performance are the criteria then you have to reward players who are scoring runs & picking wickets and if you can't then it can be clearly said domestic performances are'nt bench mark for selection. Real truth is selector has moved from performance to impact in selecting squad and hence many performers are getting neglected.

[prasen9]

I agree fully with you. Except that selectors have moved on from performance to impact. Selectors think that they are too smart. Human beings do. We think that we know much better and can predict who will succeed and who will not. That is, the selectors who are not doing other nefarious things like taking bribes. Performance is impact and impact is performance. What selectors are using is wishful thinking and day-dreaming. That is what causes our failures.

Our earlier year selectors who did not take bribes were also parochially biased. The Mumbai lobby fought for the Mumbai kids. That is why, we had Nilesh Kulkarni, Samir Dighe, etc. get chances and not others. That I think is reduced. Or at least not so blatant.

But, yes, selectors are choosing crazy failures these days too and they think they can somehow catch magic in a bottle. Except that magic does not really happen if we wish it too. The best predictors are perhaps those based on analytics, including projections based on fundamentals, etc. and then using a human finish (not total disregard for performance and not total wishful thinking) where we pick generational talent, etc. For example, Gill has been awful in tests but has been pretty good in all domestic cricket and fantastic in ODIs and good in T20Is. So, he can be given a longer rope in tests despite his failures. Etc.

I am okay with picking generational talent when the grade is incomplete. That is, we do not have the data that this kid is good or bad but he looks totally SRT-ish. So, let's pick him. That is fine. That is where human judgement comes in to project and fill in the future performance. But, if you have the data, i.e., the person has repeatedly failed, then ignoring that altogether almost always results in failures.

Like I have asked me repeatedly, show me a few domestic failures who did great in international cricket. If it did not happen much in the history of cricket, why will it happen now? On the other hand, most ICC cup winners were cup-winning-failures for many times before they won their country cups.

[Raju Bhai]

Akash Madhwal should be in WTC final playing XI instead of injured Unadkat. Siraj, Shami & Akash Madhwal..... looks terrific bowling attack to beat Aussies