Australia tests & ODIs vs India in India, Feb-Mar 2023

[prasen9]

So now Ishan Kishan is your new hobby horse to batter. Yes, his T20I strike rate is not as high as it should be.

But yesterday, he played a perfectly paced innings in the circumstances. A strike rate of nearly 150 (9 runs per over) was perfect when his partner was hammering at the other end. You don't seem to understand the rhythms of the sport. Somebody has to stay at the crease. If India lost a third wicket early, there would be pressure on Suryakumar, and his ability to score at will would have been circumscribed.

All this is agreed. I did say that we don't win if he does not stay at the wicket. My point is that he has been abysmally slow over 30 matches. And, yesterday, too he was slow. His innings was certainly useful. Yes, if he had performed even more poorly, then SkAY would have been more circumspect in his hitting. But, we can say the same for everyone. If you perform worse ... then your team will be in trouble. Especially, with our tail and drastic drop in batting after the top 6.

The point really is that his inning yesterday was not that fast given the circumstances. Or should we decide first, and then use the SR to say he batted well, and don't need the context - pitch and short stadium. And, then when his career SR is called out, we need the context.

I have no problem accepting he played a crucial role in yesterday's match. But, in context, it was a slower inning than what was required. He did not show that he could hit. And, one of the wickets we lost was because of the pressure he put on the rest of the team by playing out a maiden over. The point is he cannot hit. Yet. I hope he turns it around.

[prasen9]

Fetish for numbers and numbers alone is not wise. You can’t be didactic in judging performance. There are many other considerations. Ishan belongs to the current Indian T20 team without a doubt.

These without a doubt selections have resulted in us losing and the Aussie method of respecting reality/nature and not trying to say that man somehow knows better works.

Answering PKB, my hobby horse is simple. We are putting up sub-optimal products by ignoring what reality is telling us. You guys are creating strawmen that numbers are all that should be considered. But, ignoring numbers that have been acquired over many matches and wishful thinking that reality is different, aka I know better despite what reality/nature is telling us. That sort of audacity is what is hubristic.

Ishan Kishan is a failure in T20Is. I want to play him in ODIs, where his slow at beginning etc. type of game is much more useful than the stupid quota selection player. We will try him and try him in T20Is, and things will not improve. Then, we make some ad hoc decision and then it fails. And, we go into a tournament without building a good backup bench. This is what keeps happening time and again and we still think human judgement is the be all and end all while ignoring what we observe. All those chances that went to SkAY because of this thinking prevented us from checking out Samson or Yashasvi or NTTV. And the result was hubris. A no show of a player when we needed him. We are going to repeat the same thing if we don't learn.

There is a reason vodoo science and quacks did not work and human life expectancy, etc. increased after we went into evidence-based medicine, etc. require stringent RCTs, etc.

This supposed many other considerations: I am all ears. I have made the case as to why Ishan should not be in the team. Someone who has batted at about 125 for 30 T20Is usually never really magically learn to hit. I have not seen it. If you have instances where people with Ishan's record suddenly matured and became fantastic players, point them out. If you have instances of many matches that Ishan has won for us point them out. Put some evidence behind your random proclamations.

Make the case why Ishan deserves more chances and Jitesh none.

Instead of saying numbers are not the be all and end all. So, we should pick on a whim and a prayer.

[prasen9]

Just to put it in perspective. India needed to bat at 174. If you pick someone who is slow like Ishan or Gaikwad, then the onus is on the other players to make that run up. Kishan batted at 149. Yashasvi, SkAY, and Rinku had to make up for the runs Ishan scored less than required. Yashasvi was out trying to cover up the deficit created by Kishan the over before. Luckily, SkAY and Rinku made up for it. But, those days they would not have been as good or as lucky, YBKJ, SkAY or RKS could have been out before. Now, you are left with fewer balls and putting more pressure on the ones coming after you to score at a fast clip. After SkAY scored 50 runs, the pressure was not there because he succeeded. But, he is also human.

Why is this the preferred way? I do not understand the rhythms of the game, etc. But, there is no logic. Except to say that one player is not good enough to hit at the required rate, 175 and will become out. Then, that sub-standard player plays slowly and we hope that the other player takes more risks to cover up.

I don't see England or West Indies, when they had their top T20I winning teams, play this anchor-hitter style of cricket. They have people who can hit from top to bottom. That causes disaster in ODIs but in T20Is, they have set the standard. By playing the old anchor-hitter style of cricket, we actually don't optimize things. In essence, bad balls to the anchor are not dispatched and better balls to the hitter needs to be hit at risk. This makes no sense from a risk management point of view.

Ideally, I would like to see that we have players who can hit at 135 and score over 25 runs on average - career stats. Ideally, above 140. Championship teams had that. We need to build towards that.

If you don't want numbers, I will use words. Gaikwad and Ishan have been very slow over their T20International careers and have been unable to hit bowlers when needed as much as is needed in that match and stadium. Gaikwad has not gotten very many chances and may still improve. But, Ishan we have given enough chances and he has been slow. Chances are that he cannot hit consistently. We cannot carry too many of these slow batters. Maybe one at most. Ideally, we need to have batters who can hit in the international game.

Rahul for that matter hits more and scores more than Ishan. And, should be our first choice wicket-keeper bat at this point. But, we need to create depth. Especially, if we are playing Kohli or Gaikwad or someone in the anchor role up the order. A lower order wicket-keeper who can hit is useful. We need to try Jitesh and/or whoever to see if they can bat fast and score runs in the international T20 game. At least to create depth.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

BCCI & Media partnership has come to rescue act of making people forget WC final loss through IPL transfer

[prasen9]

Yet another flat pitch, small ground. Yet another slow inning by Gaikwad on a relative basis based on conditions; of course this would have been fine in a bowling friendly ground or even an average ground. Kishan scored some runs but relatively slow in comparison to the others on this ground. At the end, again Rinku was not out. Maybe we should move one of the slowpokes Gaikwad and Kishan down the order and give SkAY and Rinku the opportunity to hit earlier on. I hope 235 is enough on this ground but it may not be. Let's see.

[prasen9]

Well, at the end, a win. Thanks to Rinku. And Jashasvi. And SkAY. If/when these guys fail, will the others be able to put up competitive totals? We need to build that backup. In essence, to win a cup, all batters need to be able to adapt and adjust. Let us see.

Wrt the bowling, Arshdeep and Mukesh were rank bad. Very little control over line and length. From what the spinners did, the answer was very clear. Any ball that hit the pitch came on nicely with a hit me labeled on it. The only balls that were hard to hit were yorkers bowled at a slow pace. Basically do not give the batter the chance to swing their arms. Mukesh and Arshdeep may be bowled 1-2 good balls and then would err. Arshdeep has possibly gone down the drain. Or his initiall good start in his career was a rich patch where he hit form. Sad. We need pacers.

PK was also wayward but at least he is an attacking bowler and takes wickets. Still not good enough for T20Is. At least yet.

Bishnoi is superb. Kuldeep is our #1 wrist spinner but I would not hesitate to play both Bishnoi and Kuldeep. If we can manage the end batting. Which it seems we cannot. So, Kuldeep, followed by Bishnoi.

Spinning allrounder. Axar bowled quite well. Without him, this match perhaps goes more to the wire. I still would want a bit more control from him in some of the other games and a bit more wicket-taking but he is more of a wicket-taker than Sundar or Jaddu. Jadeja keeps it the tightest and then Sundar. Then, Axar. So, from the bowling perspective, it seems that Jadeja gives the best value? Anyway, play the juniors until a few months before the WC.

SkAY captained very well. We should have him as the VC even if Hardik is the captain. However, he did miss a trick, when our pacers were bowling crap and spinners very difficult to hit. Why not give NTTV an over instead of the crappy pacers? And, if we have no confidence that NTTV can bowl a half decent over when the other pacers are going at 12 runs/over regularly on a pitch that is assisting spinners, then we are in a bit of a trouble. It seems this was not a decision by SkAY but the team management does not really care about developing a sixth bowler. Sad. It will come to bite us someday.

Australia played a very non-Australian team. Four batters at the end who were dodgy. They basically don't care about the series. So, just like Rinku, Wade ran out of balls and partners. Otherwise, this match would have been closer.

Looking at the Aussie RR, all our batters played at a SR over theirs except Gaikwad. While a 50 is very useful, the most important was perhaps the first 15-20 balls he played. After that, an anchor needs to hit. Or get out. If he had gotten out after a 30 or maybe after 25 balls, we would have crossed 240. We had Rinku, NTTV, and Axar underutilized at the end. We need dynamic players who can meet multiple roles. First, play a bit to get us to safety and then accelerate to maximize our advantage.

[Atithee]

Bishnoi went for plenty in the last match.

[prasen9]

No bowler goes without getting hit in one match. Over 18 matches, he has done reasonably well. As I said, I would place Kuldeep before him. But, it is promising to build some backups. Without Bishnoi and Axar, we lose today.

In this series, Bishnoi has been our best strike bowler along with PK. Both 4 wickets each. The rest have been crappy wrt taking wickets.

Wrt runs/over, Axar has been way better than the others, and then Mukesh. Both before Bishnoi in the series overall.

Unfortunately, Arshdeep has been our worst bowler, over all.

I have criticized Ishan but he has batted overall pretty well in that he is consistently scoring runs in the two matches. As have Yashasvi, SkAY, Rinku and Gaikwad (if we ignore the runout). So, the batters are in good form. We need to find some consistent big-hitters if we can. NTTV has not scored runs but he has not wasted too many balls either.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Its not sure how many of these players will play the T20WC as crying for chokers for one more WC has already began.SKY is doing fine as skipper and should be the captain for T20WC. These youths can make impact if they are given proper chances.

[prasen9]

If they can keep performing, we should not turn away from Yashasvi, Gill, SkAY, NTTV, and Rinku. My keeper is Rahul. And, the other player would be Hardik. That would be my first XI. If Kishan shows he can hit, Gaikwad too, then they would enter the conversation too.

The bowlers have done a bit badly. So, Jadeja, Kuldeep, Bumrah are perhaps still the first choice in my mind. With one more pacer from whoever performs. My choice would be DLC. I want the team to bat up to #9 since all our bowlers are bad anyway.

Hardik has become slower these days. So, Khanchand is my choice for finisher.

So: Bhupendra Kumar, Gill, Ashok, Thakur Tilak, Khanchand, Lokesh, Himanshu batting in that order. Let the harder hitters go first and then the thuk thuk brigade can come in if a few wickets fall and take rearguard action.

No, no, no more chokers. I hope they keep Umran, Avesh, etc. all the jokers and chokers out of the team ... until they can improve in the domestics and people don't hit them out of the park and laugh regularly at them. First, they should get respect in the lower levels and then the jokers can be considered.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Team Management played 2nd string squad in nearly every Odi Series before WC, but at the main event World biggest chokers came and took over.Gill tuk tuk is not for this format. He should enjoy his off field issues, has not done anything big in SENA conditions https://www.crictracker.com/cricket-art ... 823/?amp=1
but since its Indian Cricket and it has been happening for last few years, he will join with the chokers and play T20WC in place of Jaiswal. KL tuk tuk for Ishan. If some strong personality ruled BCCI, these chokers should have beem thrown out to play ongoing VHZ trophy instead of resting. By the way the chokers must thank media for creating IPL transfer hype that is making people forget one of the biggest lost match in indian cricket history.

[prasen9]

Well I'd prefer KL tuk tuk to Ishan tuk tuk tuk. No point choosing slower batters. Ditto for Gill tuk tuk, Gaikwad is tuk tuk tuk. If the tuk tuk tuks play better than the tuk tuks, then they should become tuks and be in the team. But, tuk tuk is better than tuk tuk tuk anyday. I would be glad to see Gill, who at least succeeds in some places, than the tuk tuk tuks who fail everywhere in the world. Just go and check how many centuries the tuk tuk tuks have in SENA. Most of them are a big 0.

BTW, I am not a Gill fan. I think he is a FTB. I would love to have someone who can play abroad but I do not want universal failures to replace him. If we drop Rohit and Kohli, we have space for both Gill and Yashasvi. I do want Gill to be dropped from the test team and retained in the ODI team.

He has played 6 ODIs in SENA. How many players have scored centuries in their first 6 ODIs in SENA? Stupid conclusions drawn from small data would be stupid. 6 tests in SENA too. As I said, I am not a fan in tests at this point for him for other reasons. Looking at centuries alone is meaningless, doubly so by taking small data samples.

To the extent I know, Gill has never played a T20I in SENA countries. You can't score a century in a country without visiting the country as a T20I international. He has done fine in India and U.S.A. Let him play. The other failures should not be before him. If in the next IPL someone smashes the tournament, they should be tried before him. I would be fine with that. Not the bunch of failures who have failed over 30 T20Is and 10 T20Is or so.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

KL tuktuk & Gill tuk tuk chokers will finish India's chances before WC begins. Only blind can say Ishan is tuk tuk in T20Is specially in current form. No need to put light on what he did in past, as chokers has got 0 both in present as well as past. Manish Pandey is the one who gives stupid conclusion from stupid data as he scored match winning first ton playing his just 4th Odi in Sydney, in tests i think many are there KL tuktuk Rahul, Praveen Ambre, Sourav Ganguly & V Shewag . Gill never needs to play in Sena his counterpart Avishek Sharma will be fine as the 3rd opener & he has got the added advantage of bowling few overs.

[prasen9]

I do not mind Abhishek Sharma. He is promising. Not a total failure in T20Is over and over again like Ishan. Why should we ignore his long body of useless batting series over series? Everyone can play fine against a second string Australia in very short grounds and hit shots that would have been catches that just go over the boundary. Kishan has failed in England badly, failed in Ireland again badly, failed in New Zealand - could hardly play faster than a fast ODI inning there and looked all at sea, was awful in U.S.A. playing as if he is playing a test match - not even a fast ODI inning there and in West Indies batting at maybe ODI rates in T20Is. He is mentally timid. Unless he changes soon, he should be nowhere near the Indian team. Bring in Jitesh or whoever. We don't need more timid players. It is a long body of awful work. Why should we ignore all that and give him freebies? The last WC taught us what happens if we choose players who fail everywhere. They also fail in the main stage.

Using centuries to select team is height of stupidity. That gets you Manish Pandey like players. And, maybe a handful at best over 30 years. You cannot make a team based on such stupid criteria. Anyway, Kishan has played many more games of T20Is abroad than Gill. There is no reason to choose the proven failure over an unknown player largely. He does not have a century in SENA either. Far from it.

[sameerph]

Istn't IPL one of the best measure to select teams for T20 cricket ( not for 50 over cricket as they do many times) ?

In IPL 2023, Gill was the top scorer with an average of close to 60 and strike rate of 158. His average was better than any of the Indian players mentioned in discussion above and his strike rate is lower than only SKY (181) and Jaiswal (163). So, how is he tuk-tuk player ?