Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

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Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

Ravindra Jadeja has always suffered from a misapprehension of his precise role in the side: he should be thought of as a talismanic allrounder (the world's best fielder, sometimes rated the world's top test bowler, and an extremely capable batsman), but has instead been labelled a "bits and pieces player" by the asinine Sanjay Manjrekar (whose friend Shastri was the quintessential bits and pieces player, with a bowling average -- for runs/wicket -- higher than his batting average, for runs/innings!). One of the black marks against Jadeja the batsman is the innings he played in the T20I world championship match against England in 2009. I remember that quite vividly, because I arrived at Heathrow just before India's innings (in response to England's meagre 153/7) began. The immigration official asked me the purpose of my visit -- and I said "business, but mixed with pleasure: I plan to watch India win the cricket championship again", an answer he loved. In the black London taxi into town, we listened to the commentary of Jadeja's excruciating innings, as he simply failed to accelerate -- finally falling for 25 off 35 in the 14th over, leaving India in a hole at 85/4. The result was a shocking defeat, as India fell 3 runs short (150/5).

While Jadeja rightly took massive flak for that innings, the real error was the captain's -- to have sent him at number 4, in the expectation that he would play like a genuine batsman (or batting allrounder). What is easily forgotten is that Jadeja had (after Bhajji's 3/30 in 4) been India's best bowler that day (with 2/26 in 4 overs). To expect him to then perform with the bat as well was surely asking too much. It took Jadeja a long time to live that down, with the blazing innings at the 2019 World Cup semifinal finally redeeming him as a batsman in most observer's minds.

In test cricket, there has never been any doubt about his role: Jadeja is a bowling allrounder -- with 220 wickets (after 51 tests and one innings), far better than my boyhood bowling hero Erapalli Prasanna who finished with 189 off 49 tests. And Jadeja's bowling average of 24.3 is over 5 runs/wicket better than Bishen Bedi's -- implying that he is the greatest left-arm spinner in Indian test history. (I rate Vinoo Mankad ahead of Bedi, but Jadeja's numbers are the best of the lot, helped of course by having better fast bowling support in his era). But Jadeja also averages 36.18 with the bat in tests -- better than KL Rahul and Hanuma Vihari's batting averages. Yet he still bats at number 7. Surely he is due for a promotion. What is clear, though, is that Ravindra Jadeja is now in a league of 3 -- alongside Vinoo Mankad and Kapil Dev -- as the greatest all-rounder in Indian test history. On current numbers, he is well ahead of Kapil Dev (batting average of 5 runs/innings better, and bowling average 5 runs/innings less/better), and hence has to be acknowledged as India's best-ever all-rounder to-date.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by rajitghosh »

PKB, with due respect even though I greatly admire Sir Jadeja as a cricketer and his 3 dimensional abilities I would not rate him the greatest Indian allrounder. My take:

Kapil Dev: If there is one cricketer who has inspired a generation it is Kapil. He came into the Indian team when India was not a top notch side and the bowling worth talking of was 4 spinners at the fag ends of great career. For much of his career he shouldered Indian bowling single handedly. Look at the support he had. Among spinners the best would be Dilip Doshi followed by Shivlal Yadav, Ravi Shastri and Maninder Singh. Among slow medium swing bowlers (bowlers with longish runups but no speed) his companions were Karsan Ghavri, Madan Lal, Roger Binny, Chetan Sharma, Mohinder Amarnath, Balwinder Sandhu and Manoj Prabhakar. None of them were great bowlers meaning he had to shoulder the entire bowling responsibility. Batting wise he started of in an era when attacking batsmen were looked down upon. Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Vengsarkar, Amarnath and Shastri were ulta-defensive batsmen. He managed to bring that aggressive mindset to Indian batting from which Srikanth, Azhar and later Tendulkar and Sehwag emerged. Technique wise he had the ability to play on all surfaces and was one of the best pullers of his generation (his generation included Viv and Greenidge). Had he concentrated more on his batting he could have had a higher average but he never played for averages. As a fielder he would remain in my list of greatest Indian fielders. He had tremendous contribution in India winning both the 1983 World Cup and the 1985 WCC (even though Shastri got the Audi car). He had tremndous contribution in many test wins- Melbourne 1981, his single handed win over Pakistan at Chennai in 1980, against England at home in 1981, his century in the Hirwani test and so on. He ended his career with a miserly bowling economy rate even in one day cricket. Even in modern day cricket his style of bowling would have been economical simply because of the length and line he could bowl along with yorkers.
Mankad: He could bat at any position. He bowled in an era when there was no fast bowling or fielding support. He has spin support in the form of Gupte.Pitches were uncovered, there was no protective equipment and there was no restriction on bouncers. Yes he batted and scored runs against the likes of Trueman, Bedser, Lindwall and Miller. He made his debut at the age of 29 having lost many years due to the war. There were no easy opposition in those days to get easy runs and wickets from (the weakest team was New Zealand). Indian wins were few and far between in those days but he had significant contribution is some of those.
Jadeja: Not a versatile batsman. I suspect some of his higher average is contributed by not outs. Has the best bowling support (both fast and spin). He is not India's main strike bowler that the other two were. He can't command a place in the one day team or in the test team abroad whereas Kapil's place was so taken for granted that his dropping led to riots. Let him be indispensible to be called the greatest. I do wish he gets there. I greatly admire his skills though for me Kapil is India's greatest ever cricketer ahead of Sachin or Kohli.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

The thread is titled "India's best-ever test all-rounder". As a test cricketer, Jadeja's bowling average makes him one of the greatest Indian bowlers of all time -- if not the greatest. Just because he wasn't always picked doesn't make him any less effective. Even outside India, Jadeja's batting average in tests is better than his bowling average -- the hallmark of a true allrounder.
I greatly admire Vinoo Mankad. He was India's best batsman and bowler in his era, but he played at a time when India weren't really competitive, so his numbers look underwhelming.
Kapil Dev was India's greatest ODI all-rounder. In tests, he was second-best to Jadeja -- by a considerable distance -- as both batsman and bowler. And as a fielder, Jadeja is streets ahead of everyone, including Kapil, apart from the specialist-fielder Solkar, who was probably better close-in. I've seen Solkar in the covers; he was quite electrifying there too, but Jadeja is better.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by prasen9 »

I am a numbers person but I was somewhat convinced by Mr. Ghosh' point. Wrt Mankad, he did play a major role in our fragile batting, etc. Numbers matter but better numbers matter better. If you look at the ICC ratings batting-wise, which accounts for the context of the matches played a lot instead of taking raw averages, Jadeja's batting has gone up and up and only now has become quite good (rating 600) in tests in the last year or two. On the other hand, Mankad's graph shows him hovering between 400 and 600 for quite some time. So, I think Jadeja needs to be decent with the bat for a longer time to bolster that part of his resume.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by sameerph »

Have not seen Mankad play. So cannot comment on him. But, whatever the numbers say, still feel Kapil was a better player overall than Jadeja. Most of Jadeja's wickets have come on helpful pitches at home while Kapil's wickets have come unresponsive matches at home. Also Kapil had played 131 test matches as compared to 51 by Jadeja. Would he be able to sustain his bowling average if he goes on to play 131 matches? If I recall correctly, Kapil's stats deteriorated badly in his last few days.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by rajitghosh »

Check on YouTube, you'll get some old Indian test match videos. There are some grainy videos of Mankad.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

sameerph wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:23 pm Have not seen Mankad play. So cannot comment on him. But, whatever the numbers say, still feel Kapil was a better player overall than Jadeja. Most of Jadeja's wickets have come on helpful pitches at home while Kapil's wickets have come unresponsive matches at home. Also Kapil had played 131 test matches as compared to 51 by Jadeja. Would he be able to sustain his bowling average if he goes on to play 131 matches? If I recall correctly, Kapil's stats deteriorated badly in his last few days.
No Indian bowlers ever had bowling averages of 25 or below before Jadeja and Ashwin. It is not for nothing that they have been ranked the best test bowlers in the world for fairly long periods. Chandra, Bedi, Pras had a few brilliant spells, but they usually had to buy their wickets, conceding a lot of runs along the way. Kapil was a cut above his bowling partners, but his bowling average was around 27-28 even at the height of his career. Jadeja's test batting is significantly more consistent than Kapil's, although of course the latter had more bouts of brilliance (interspersed with utter rubbish) while Jadeja performs with greater consistency as a test batsman.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by prasen9 »

Agree 100% with PKB on this one.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

My father played club cricket in Calcutta against Vinoo Mankad (who used to play for Rajasthan club in the Calcutta league), and he worships him. He also played college and club cricket against Pankaj Roy, who he admired as well, although Mankad to him was a cut above as a batsman too. To him, there was no bowler who came close to Vinoo: Subhas Gupte (who he didn't play against, but watched from the stands) being only a close second. And of course Vinoo Mankad was a terrific batsman as well, putting up the world record opening stand with Pankaj of 413 in 1955 (which Dravid-Sehwag failed to beat by 3 runs at Lahore in 2006, but which Graeme Smith and McKenzie surpassed by 2 at Chattogram in 2008), and making 231 which was the highest test score by an Indian until Gavaskar passed it at Chennai in 1984.

Vinoo Mankad was the match-winner in each of India's first 5 test victories. Neither Kapil nor Jadeja can match that incredible record. And there is no doubt that Vinoo was the best batsman and bowler in India for at least 5 (and perhaps 10) years -- which cannot be said about Kapil and Jadeja. But when it comes to sheer performance, numbers cannot lie. Jadeja's batting and bowling averages are many notches better -- reflecting the fact that Indian cricket has advanced hugely over the decades, and is finally the dominant force in the cricket world, as this series in Australia has demonstrated.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by Kumar »

I think The numbers don’t always tell the truth! Jadeja may turn out to be statistically the best all rounder, but I am not ready to crown him as India’s best

Kapil did not have the bowling resources and he played with a batting line up that had 2 to 3 batsman that were good! I would be interested to see India’s average score when kapil came to bat versus Jadeja
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by Atithee »

I agree. Plus, if Mankad was an opener, it is a far more credible record than coming in with only an upside to your performance as a batsman. I don’t think they can even be talked in the same breath yet. Heck, I’d say Mohinder Amarnath was better to illustrate his impact, which numbers will never show.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by prasen9 »

I do not want to even get into comparing with Mohinder because he was a batting all-rounder. He was a dibbly dobbly bowler lethal when we have swinging conditions. Otherwise, he would not get into a team just as a bowler. Jadeja could, if injured, arguably get into the team either as a bowler or a batsman only. As perhaps could Kapil. I agree that stats are not everything. Mankad was a great player for his generation. Do not know how exactly I can compare especially I have not seen him. Yes, I can watch some youtube recordings. But, that is not the same. I would know his technique, etc. but the true champions are known for their grit and ability to play everywhere. I doubt there are very many videos of a bunch of 0s that he scored or when he got hit badly as a bowler, etc. So, don't know.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

Atithee wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:54 pm I agree. Plus, if Mankad was an opener, it is a far more credible record than coming in with only an upside to your performance as a batsman. I don’t think they can even be talked in the same breath yet. Heck, I’d say Mohinder Amarnath was better to illustrate his impact, which numbers will never show.
Mohinder wasn't a test all-rounder at all. He was an ODI all-rounder for a few years (especially around 1983 :-) ). But in tests, he made his debut as a bowler, then was out for a long time, and made his comeback as a batsman. He was never a test all-rounder.
Vinoo Mankad batted at every spot in the batting order. He was a bowler primarily, but also became India's best batsman. A genuine all-rounder, to a much greater extent than Kapil, especially in test cricket. Kapil couldn't ever command a place as a pure batsman -- he never had the consistency for it. Jadeja is a genuine all-rounder in test cricket, as the numbers clearly indicate. I agree that longevity is a consideration too, and Jadeja having played only 51 tests cannot necessarily be compared with Kapil's 131. But never in Kapil's career were his batting and bowling averages better than Jadeja's are at the moment, and Jadeja has already played more tests than Prasanna, for instance.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by prasen9 »

By the way, we have been debating all this and while I have reservations on Jadeja's batting early in his career and want him to bat well for a few more years, I realized why I instinctively feel he is the best-ever test all-rounder. Because of his fielding. Kapil was also a very good fielder. But, Jadeja takes it to a different level. Kapil, of course, has the captaincy in his bag. But, everyone cannot become captain. But everyone can bat, bowl, and field and if they are good they will get a chance. I think his superlative fielding puts him very close to being a best ever bowling test all-rounder in my books. I find it hard to compare a Sobers, a batting allrounder with bowling all-rounders.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

Kapil Dev himself was asked yesterday who India's best all-rounders are (the reporter expecting him to speak about Hardik Pandya etc.) and Kapil of course immediately said Jadeja and Ashwin. Jadeja's numbers have deteriorated a bit, but his test batting average (slightly below 34 now) is still more than 2 points above Kapil's, and Jadeja's bowling average remains below 25 (24.84), nearly 5 runs/wicket better than Kapil's test bowling average (29.64) -- so, purely on the numbers, Jadeja is the better test all-rounder by quite a margin. Numbers aren't everything: Kapil's impact was undoubtedly greater, but Jadeja is right up there among the greatest test bowling all-rounders of all time.
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