Anna Hazare's fast

[Sandeep]

Am I only one or is there anyone who thinks Anna Hazare is being juvenile about his fast to death on lokpal bill? This is seriously undermining a democracy? Who is he to blackmail the government. It is getting on to my nerve watching scores of people supporting him without knowing what they are getting into.

Bringing PM under the lokpal will paralyze the government whenever there is an allegation on him. As such because of the over zealousness of UPA government to involve CBI in every matter, there is nothing happening in the country. Not even a single file is being moved by the concerned authorities even in genuine cases fearing the wrath of law enforcement agencies. Lakpall bill will put this countries development to rest. Anna Hazare is plain stupid till he realizes that corruption is deeply rooted in our system and politicians are just a part of it!

[sameerph]

Lokpall bill will put this countries development to rest. Anna Hazare is plain stupid till he realizes that corruption is deeply rooted in our system and politicians are just a part of it!

If you take all th big scams which have happened in the past few years, politicians have been at the root of the scam, not just part of it. And aren't they supposed to root out corruption as elected representatives of the people.

Perhaps some of his means may not be right, but his cause is rightful . He is getting so much support because people are now tired of corruption with big scams coming out every 3 months or so. Government is certainly shaken by this huge support he is getting.

[jayakris]

Corrupion is a good thing. I am a fan of others doing it, though I am way too straight/moral and would not do one corrupt thing (nor do I have any skills for it). But the fact is that corruption is needed for a country's development. The problem in India is that we, our system, and our constitution are all way too idealistic, and assume that corruption can be legislated out or enforced out (with archaic and inefficient mechanisms for both too). Systems that encourages productive corruption that is based on competition and accountability in corruption is what we need. China has such a system, in fact. The US also allows it (a prime example is why lobbying is considered a part of democratic systems). Any incompetent guy can be corrupt in India, and the corruption is often sole-sourced. Anybody at any level can be corrupt in India and can make money without having to do anything productive, because his/her corrupt activities will not be challenged by somebody else better at corruption. The system should make those who are really capable, to be corrupt and make themselves and the country productive with their greed. The system should continue to have the cat-mouse with corruption too, to make sure that the country/people are not harmed either. Our system does not allow any of it. If we do not first stop being idealistic, we cannot think of better mechanisms to spur greed and productivity. Do I make any sense at all?

Yes, I am somewhat closer to Sandeep's thinking in this, but I like the hoopla created by Anna Hazare because it will make people think about corruption and hopefully will lead to BETTER corruption in India. The corrupt politicians will win in the end, but we cannot make it easy for them. They better get very capable at it because of those like Mr. Hazare

Jay

[suresh]

I have not followed the Anna Hazare and the Lokpal bill a lot. My reason is simple -- I believe that we always get politicians who are representative of the society we live in. In other words, big scams aside, each one of us should live a clean life and not expect magical solutions in the form of a Lokpal bill. Having seen at least three other countries closely, the lack of basic ethical values in our society never ceases to shock me.

[PKBasu]

We are facing a crisis of governance because we have a PM who has responsibility without power.
We have handed real power to a semi-literate Italian, who has been on the Indian taxpayers' pay-roll since 1991 (when she moved into one of the most palatial bungalows in Delhi, 10 Janpath); now she has secretly gone to the US supposedly to be hospitalized, and the press is not even asking questions about where she is. Even in a monarchy, nobody gets such a free pass. She appoints every single minister in this government, but when it comes to constitutional responsibility it is the spineless Manmohan who has to bear it. The untenability of the situation is nicely encapsulated by the absurd spectacle yesterday: the government arrests Hazare, then the party leader (semi-literate Rahul baba) tries to claim credit for ordering his release. Hazare knows better: he is continuing his fast/dharna inside Tihar, refusing to leave until he gets written guarantees from the government on his various (often outrageous) demands. Hazare 2, Cong-I 0.

[Sandeep]

UPA has handled it very badly indeed. I am not sure if I am feeling like this because I am in Andhra Pradesh where people are ruling themselves, but for the last 2 years I have a feeling that there is no governance at all in the country. UPA-1 was decent, but UPA-2 is the most abject government I have come across ever since I have started following politics.

Come on, how difficult is it for some one responsible from the UPA government (some one clean like AK Anthony) to come out and explain the ill effects of bringing PM under the lokpall bill? Nothing of that sort has happened and instead they have started some crap like Anna is corrupt himself and all which enraged people further! I am fed up with these old politicians at the top and the congress way of dealing with issues by prolonging them forever.

AP is a gone case, there is a crisis in Karnataka, problem is brewing up in Delhi and already two CMs are changed in Maharashtra! There is only one reason for this, UPA-2!!! And to top that, they are not even able to maintain India's economic progress and now Anna!! A total failure

[gbelday]

Corrupion is a good thing. I am a fan of others doing it, though I am way too straight/moral and would not do one corrupt thing (nor do I have any skills for it). But the fact is that corruption is needed for a country's development.
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Do I make any sense at all?
Jay

Not really Jay. I thought I did but now I don't. How can corruption be a good thing? A bit of corruption exists everywhere in the world. I understand nobody can be that idealistic. But in India, it's reached extraordinary proportions. The Financial Times refers to our country (today's edition) as the "land of scams". It's impossible to get anything done without paying a bribe. You can even get a fake birth certificate if you pay someone. I know someone who missed a cutoff date because of their birthday and they were able to get a certificate with a revised birthdate!! Where else in the world (besides Pakistan maybe:)) is that possible? Although I see some corruption at very high levels in the US and in the UK (where I lived for a little while), I don't see it rooted in people's day to day life. Anna's protests may be a bit over the top but it certainly stuck a chord our fellow countrymen. Just look at the various classes/sects/professions of people who are part of the protests. I wouldn't doubt Anna's intentions one bit. I think our country needs it.

[jic]

Oh, what's the use? It's Kali Yuga!

BTW, for a while I thought this Anna Hazare was some hot chick like Anna Kournikova! Dang! He's just hot about the checks (or lack thereof)!

[jayakris]

Corrupion is a good thing. I am a fan of others doing it, though I am way too straight/moral and would not do one corrupt thing (nor do I have any skills for it). But the fact is that corruption is needed for a country's development.
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Do I make any sense at all?

Not really Jay. I thought I did but now I don't. How can corruption be a good thing? A bit of corruption exists everywhere in the world. I understand nobody can be that idealistic. But in India, it's reached extraordinary proportions ....
Although I see some corruption at very high levels in the US and in the UK (where I lived for a little while), I don't see it rooted in people's day to day life.

I think what you said there itself was one of my main points. In US, UK, and most successful countries, there is corruption. It is not talked about much and is tough to pinpoint, but the fact is that what may be called (and indeed is) corruption, exists in all the successful countries. Except that it is done in rather sophisticated ways, forced by what I called competition among corrupt people. It is at massive levels too, though not accounted for. It is based on people-to-people, behind-the-curtains, under-the-table activities - but the corrupt politicians have to go for the more capable companies and people because of their own accountability to their constituents (which may include governmental agencies and employees too) and the other parties' accountability for their own causes too. The straight bank balance of each party is often not the driving force, though that is also in the picture. The legislative and enforcement mechanisms would prevent the bank balance calculations from being easy too.

Thus, such corruption can really only be done by and with capable people who would also have to get things done, which ends up being helpful for the productivity, development, and people's jobs etc in those countries - along with the corrupt people's getting rich. In India the corrupt gets rich without the accompanying benefits to anybody else but them personally. Most corruption revolves around single large/small cash transactions between one person and another, if you want to make a rather simplified characterization of India's corruption. That type of corruption needs to go, but better corruption needs to come in. That is what I was talking about.

If there was sophisticated corruption with competition at the higher levels, necessitated by strong enough political and constitutional systems, then the birth certificate office employees would be getting paid better and monitored better - so they wouldn't have to take bribes, and neither would it be easy to do it. The whole Indian system lacks accountability at every level and wide-spread and often petty corruption is what results. That is what Indians take to be corruption.

That is why we end up at the CWG with a wbesite and scoring system that never even started working, toilets that clogged and a bridge that collapsed. If there was competition in corruption, the companies would have made money but everything would have worked.

Corruption is a human reality. Channeling it properly for more people's benefit, requires constitutional systems that are strong and made by intelligent people (not copied 60 years back from the archaic systems of a piddly island in the Atlantic). India needs serious structural reforms and it needs to start with accountability for politicians and so called "people's respresentatives" - which are not guaranteed in any form by the constitution of the piddly island, when applied to a large, diverse and populous country like India.

When we Indians' talk about corruption, what comes to our minds are all the policemen and government employees we have had to bribe and the few cases of massive state nd national scams that comes out every once in a while. To prevent that by just putting in Lokpal-type systems that react to the problem rather than the roots of it, is pretty useless in the end. There will be corruption in the Lokpal system in no time, basically. All we would achieve is to weaken the already weak governmental system even further. Basic structural reform at the constitutional level is badly needed in India and I believe our people and their trust in democracy are sufficiently matured to do this. In fact, it is getting dangerously late to do it.

I mean, we have a politician who never stood for an election and is not answerable to anybody really, as our prime minister. How bad can it get? Now, we want to weaken such weak prime ministers who have a mandate only from some foreign-born or some illeterate party politician as their only "constituent" (the reason why a PM is weak), with a Lokpal also? Do you see where my argument is going? I know, it is a little convoluted.

I have no problem with Anna Hazare. He is giving a simple line that is acceptable and attractive to the frustrated but simpleton population of India (kept like that by our politicans and press). His ideas don't solve any problems, and have dangerous components to it because of its simplisic nature. But I am glad that he is getting the conversation started at some level. I can only hope that this will force people to look into what really ails India - our outdated constitution. I know, it is not the first time I have said this. It always comes down to it, in my mind.

Jay

[jayakris]

To add to the comments from PKB and Sandeep, here is the latest from the Congress party:
Congress hints at US hand in Anna Hazare protest

Are you serious? We are now back to the Indira Gandhi days? Has the Congress party fallen to this?

I mean, a two-bit guy in DC said an off-the-cuff remark when somebody asked him, and the Congress party will use that in fomenting another round of useless US-phobia in India? ..

Heck, USA may be clueless at times, but they are not that clueless as to create problems in India! Even if they were, they wouldn't be so crazy as to think that somebody like Anna Hazare could be the pawn for that. How laughable.

Jay

[PKBasu]

Truly pathetic, to try and rake up the apocryphal "foreign hand"...

The other spokesman, Manish Tiwari, has been trying to fling all kinds of mud at Hazare, all of which is falling flat. Hazare and Ramdev both have some quaint (actually, downright silly) ideas, but they are being made into heroes by the hamhandedness of this government.

[Sandeep]

Yup, it is now confirmed and proved that UPA is mad!

[jic]

What bothers people is the laziness, ineffectiveness, inefficiency of the babus as much as the corruption itself. If you could at least get things done efficiently and without hassle and harassment, the corruption would be tolerable. My cousin narrated his story of how he had to bribe an Income Tax official to accept payment for some back taxes that my cousin himself realized he had short paid. When I told him that did not make any sense, he told me to think about it. The IT official made it so difficult for my cousin to pay the back taxes. If my cousin gave up and left, the official would make a note and then hassle him a few years hence, at which point my cousin would have to pay an even bigger bribe to avoid stiff penalities and fines. So it was in my cousins interest to pay the smaller bribe now so he can clear the back taxes. Strangely rational! But the hassle my cousin experienced for weeks until the matter was cleared up was what he was really pissed off about more than the bribe he had to pay.

I say legislate a system of documented by-service commission-based incentive compensation fees i.e. bring the corruption from below the table to above the table, and you will the babus fight each other to serve.

I agree with Jay and Sandeep that it is archaically naive and idealistic to look for an unelected body to police elected and unelected public servants. It is impractical and just won't work.

But I am very glad that the debate, protests and movement is happening.

[Sandeep]

I agree a movement against corruption has to happen, but what crap is lokpal bill? Is this necessary as if we don't have enough regulating authorities? If everyone does their duty, we can minimize corruption to a great extent. That should be the emphasis rather than introducing a new body only to watch it become corrupt in the due course.

That is why I said, the people of India have to understand that corruption is in the system and is not something just pertaining to politicians. He should have a systematic plan to minimize corruption, lokpal is not going to do anything! When Anna started the movement, corruption was the cause but now Anna Hazare has become the cause. There is a massive support for Anna Hazare from all quarters and you ask them why are they supporting him, they have no clue! Fight against corruption but don't blindly support Anna Hazare, Anna himself might be a complete idiot in this matter.

[gbelday]

There is a massive support for Anna Hazare from all quarters and you ask them why are they supporting him, they have no clue!

Sandeep, majority of the folks who vote for a party in an election don't really understand the entire manifesto of that party/candidate. Does that mean we shouldn't have elections? These protests and the Lokpal bill may or may not really be the proper way to go about dealing with corruption in our society (it's debatable) but this kind of awakening is needed. Anna's demands are questionable but I don't think it matters (atleast to me). I do agree with Jay that this bill may weaken our already weak prime minister. This, to me, is similar to the Sarbanes–Oxley act in the US. Holding the PM (or the CEO) accountable sounds good on the surface but it would paralyze the entire country (or company). Our PM is smart, intelligent and honest. But he doesn't seem persuasive or effective. In other words, he is not a real politician. I am not sure what the final form of the bill would we but we should start to think beyond our current PM and this UPA governement when we design anti-corruption laws.