Pakistan, Kashmir, etc...

[Sandeep]

Arundhati Roy is a disgrace if she said that!!! If the Kashmiris whom she is talking about need azaadi, they are free to leave India. Who stopped them? Why should we give away a part of our country to Pakistan? I am not getting it.Disgusting 

[jayakris]

Not really.  You cannot ask peoples who through generations have lived in a place to just "leave" if they didn't like the country, especially when they never asked to be part of the country - and neither did their parents and grand parents from mid 20th century.

If in 60 years our governments have not found a way to make these majority people in the Kashmir area want to be part of our country, the fault is with our government and Indian people.

If people are shot for protesting, then the fault is with our government.

If our PM was sleeping, and gets involved only after 2 of 3 weeks of troubles (he apparently got involved over the last two days and has been holding meetings!  Whoop dee doo, Manmohanji!), the problem is with our government.

Hell, if 10-15 years after India's economic upswing started, and when the whole world talks about us as becoming an economic giant with vast business opportunities, we find people living in India wanting to go to a banana republic of anarchy that is going down the tubes like Pakistan (who have half of their relevance only because we have managed to give them the title of our "rivals" while they are nothing but a pest country that we should not bee bothered about), then the problem is with us, not with those Kashmiris.

Yes, Muslims do have some pan-Islamic allegiences as demonstrated everywhere, and do have "extra love" for Islamic countries, but they are not idiots if they find it is better to live in a better country.  And ours is a better country, though it is seemingly unknown to them.  We have seeminlgy not done anything to make the youngsters in Kashmir want to live in India.   These are kids who grew up since 1990, who are out in the streets.   

If Muslim-pandering internal politics by the current ruling party have caused the Muslims in Kashmir to continue their anti-India madrasas for all these years to this point, we have failed as a country.  When these muslims were allowed to do ethnic cleansing of Hindu pandits and no action was taken by the country whose majority are Hindus, we forgot that they were only losing respect for India as a nation who cares for its people, and were only getting more energized to want to leave India.  We should have had three times as much population of Hindus in Kashmir by now, and none of these problems would be there.  Instead we allowed the Hindu population grow much smaller.

Half-assed policies like drawing incorrect maps shamelessly to deceive the rest of Indians (cartographic aggression!) for 6 decades while the issue was not with the rest of the Indians but only with our policies in Kashmir, where we did nothing to bring the peoples to our side, were a problem.

Arundhati Roy actually said "India needs Azadi from Kashmir" first before adding "as much as Kashmir needs Azadi from India" - but we focus on the second phrase only.  There is a point in what she said first.   It is probably time to recognize that we as a country have been a massive failure in Kashmir and perhaps it is indeed time to cut the losses.

I hate Arundhati Roy with a passion, and have never found anything she said that I agreed with.   And I am pretty sure that her reasons for saying "India needs Azadi from Kashmir" are quite different than mine.  But on this occasion, I would not focus on Arundhati Roy, but would focus on the Nehrus, and Indiras and Manmohans (sorry, Sonia Mainos) who brought us to this point.  I may want to shoot this messenger for many other messages from her, but on this occasion, I would take the message and not spend any time thinking about that irrelevant worm, which the messenger is.

If we cannot come up with a coherent policy and long-term plan that would make Kashmiris want to stay with India, I say we redraw the maps as needed.  And first I would stop the Nehru-era thinking that if Kashmir goes, the rest of India will disintegrate.  That level of lack of confidence in our country and its people is why we are here, seeing a procession to a UN office that again only we made relevant with our asinine policies for 60 years.

Jay

[Atithee]

Jay, kudos for a hard-hitting post.  I appreciate it when someone takes a contrary stand even if majority (and sometimes I) disagree with that POV.  What is your position on a "Azad Kashmir" (independent Kashmir) vs. Kashmir being a part of the pest irrelevant country?  Or in your analysis it wouldn't matter?

[jayakris]

Heck go back to the UN reslution, and say we will hold a referendum but only for the whole Kashmir area including the piece of land Pakistan sits on, exactly as the UN resolution says.  Give a 10 year time frame to bring about the fair conditions for the referendum, and push to the hilt that we want Independence for the whole Kashmir area.   call for the UN forces to man the whole border of Larger Kashmir, after getting the Pakistan army to withdraw to 1947 boundaries, and the Indian military to pull back out as well.  Have Indian administrative service within the current LOC and Pakistan's anarchy to the other side of the LOC .. Go on a massive propaganda scheme to tell the Kashmiris on both sides (and certainly on the side India administers) that India does NOT want Kashmir's being part of India as even an option in the referendum, but independence for larger Kashmir as a separate country without Pakistan's intereference is all we want.   

THEN start doing smart things to turn around the opinions on *both* sides of the current LOC in Kashmir ...  The remaining part is the tougher one, but if we are smart, there is no way Pakistan could get Kashmiris to want to have anything to do with Pakistan, because we are a better country who would be way ahead of Pakistan in everything.  In ten years, Pakistan will be another military dictatorship anyway for sure, and certainly will be more in the dumps economically (every time a civilian government takes over Pakistan, the economy goes down ) .. Then hold a referendum and have the whole Kashmir as an independent country or even an Indian protectorate.  Don't be surprised if Kashmiris even want the "be part of india" as a referendum option (or make sure of that with smart machinations!)

Of course, this option would require Indian government to be smart first .. A tall order.

But then, I am just an uninformed armchair guy, and so the crazy solution above is of course filled with holes and is possibly very naive too

But first, for GOD'S SAKE, convey to the Kashmiris that the only one who ever violated the UN resolution is Pakistan, and not us.   "Pakistan pull out, and we will do the referendum" should be the simple chorus call and it should have been so since 1952 .. None of the Kashmiris have any idea that it is India who called for the referendum and drafted the resolution that Kashmiris now ask India to follow, and that UN gave Pakistan NO role at all in the whole of Larger Kashmir (I refuse to call the Pakistan side Azad Kahmir).   How we became the bad guys in all this, is mindboggling, and only points to utter incompetence of Nehru, Indira, Rajeev, PVNR, Vajpayee and Manmohan.

Jay

[Sandeep]

Not really.  You cannot ask peoples who through generations have lived in a place to just "leave" if they didn't like the country, especially when they never asked to be part of the country - and neither did their parents and grand parents from mid 20th century.

Why not, you don't ask them to leave but they should have left the place if it is sooooo painful to live!!! There are many countries in the world which got divided, USSR, Republic of China (though for a different reason), Bangladesh etc. I don't see this problem persisting anywhere!!! This is nothing but religious fanaticism. Kashmir is as much a pride to me (for that matter any Indian) as it is for them. Declaring Kashmir an Independent state should be a national consensus rather than a referendum limited to Kashmir state.

Is it so difficult for Kashmiris to understand that there is every need to upgrade the existing facilities in Amaranth in the wake of increasing pilgrimage every year. What is so wrong in allocating land to it that lead to such a mass protest? If the government allocated the land for a noble cause then they should stick with irrespective of any number of agitations and protests.

It is clearly the act of pro-pakistanis and secessionist outfits and they should be dealt severely. Secular people of Kashmir would have never raised such slogans. 

[Atithee]

Sandeep -- I firmly believe that a secessionist movement cannot be successful if the peoples do not support it in their heart.  A classic case in point is the Khalistan movement.  I know first hand that the people of Punjab (the Sikhs) were solidly in favor of an independent state (Khalistan).  It is not the "Operation Blue Star" that quelled their desire; it was that people got fed up with the so called "terrorists" and turned against them.  I don't deny that a strong message from the central govt had an impact, but there was a sea change in the attitude of the peoples itself.

In J&K, whether due to ethnic cleansing/marginalization or not, the fact is that the no. of pro-India people has dropped a lot.  My point here is that the peoples of J&K (particularly the K part) actually support the terrorist movement.  I suspect that if people side with India in a referendum, it would not be due to the religious aspect; rather, it would be due to the economic impact.  Unfortunately, it will not diminish much of the pro-Islam rhetoric though it might give us some respite from the wasted costly defensive measures we have to employ just to play the game (I also do not think that Pakistani side will ever let it die if the referendum is not in their favor).  In some ways, having a referendum will call the bluff.

BTW, there are a lot of examples where such agitation exists.  Indonesia, Philippines, China, Russia, Turkey, Spain, Iraq, and several African countries are examples of places where indigenous people are demanding secession/some sort of freedom (though not all these countries have necessarily been divided as India was).  Why this is seemingly limited to people with Islamic roots is a mystery to me.  I want to read a lot and figure out if there was a systematic suppression of the Islam followers through the history (a lesson from PKB on this as well as the root of the NE/Assam unrest would be a good education for me) and those feelings are now being stoked by the war mongers.

[jayakris]

Obama's pitch: Fix Kashmir for UN Security Council seat

Hmm... What do you all think? I don't really care much for whether we are in the UN security council or not, anymore, but I do like that the only country that can seem to tell our government anything on this matter is finding a way to slowly break it to our incompetent government to "shit or get off the pot" - because we have screwed up the Kashmir issue so badly for 6 decades that I cannot take it anymore. I would rather have somebody else just thumb their nose at us and challenge us like Obama seems to be considering doing...

Jay

PS: I just went ahead and renamed this thread that started when Musharaff resigned, and made it one for Kashmir also.

[prasen9]

So pray what is the solution? Obama thinks in broad brushes. He says he will change the tone in Washington and bring bipartisanship. It took him more than a year or about two to figure out that the Republicans are hell-bent on shutting everything down. Saying solve Kashmir is like saying clap with one hand.

[Sandeep]

Obama will be an idiot if he is going to relate Kashmir issue with a seat in the UN security council. He can do that if India is not following an effective solution for this problem. What is the solution and where is it? Only if USA would have put half an effort they did to solve the Israel-Palestine conflict, we would have been good today. Today India has become too strong to accept any third party settlement! If at all it happens it has to be India's way. USA had its own ego problem of us not supporting NATO and they never helped us. Is USA ready to accept whatever strong step we would take to solve the Kashmir issue without any intervention?

[jayakris]

Today India has become too strong to accept any third party settlement! If at all it happens it has to be India's way. USA had its own ego problem of us not supporting NATO and they never helped us. Is USA ready to accept whatever strong step we would take to solve the Kashmir issue without any intervention?

India has become too strong? In which way? What "strong step" is there that we can take in Kashmir? None, whatsoever. There is *nothing* India can do about Kashmir other than to let everything outside the LOC go, and even then there will be problems on the Indian side of Kashmir, because we have gloriously alienated a lot of people there. What do you mean if USA will accept our solution without intervention --- if the USA is part of anything, they *will be* intervening.

India has never shown even iota of ability to solve the Kashmir issue ourselves, and we never will. We have only painted ourselves to a tigher and tighter corner over 6 decades. We never had a solution. We still don't have. Listen to Obama or whoever (well, nobody else) and try to solve it, if we want to. Otherwise, continue to look like incompetent fools like India has looked in this matter for ever.

Jay

PS: If you want a solution, I had given my version above... Do a plebiscite after a 10 year period. Not that anybody would have the guts for that.

[prasen9]

I don't really care whether India keeps Kashmir or not. You conduct a plebiscite. Okay. The chances of Kashmir becoming a separate state are high. Now, you have a small state with little resources and money flowing in from the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. The terrorist state of Pakistan and the hegemonic state of China tries to meddle in things there. Does it look like another Afghanistan to you? Then, you have terrorist camps there who train people to take revenge against some Modi in Gujarat or some businessman who started a riot against the Muslims in Hyderabad. You just brought active terrorist camps nearer to your country. You still have to have a high level of military presence in Himachal and Leh and Punjab. So, what exactly does making Kashmir free solve? I would be glad to make Kashmir free if it can thrive as a reasonably functioning state. I am not sure that in that area and with the resources it has, it can. Any thoughts on this?

[jayakris]

No, my solution above was to do plebiscite after a sufficient period (10 years) and have all of Kashmir to be an Indo-US protectorate - because Kashmirirs will surely not go for joining Pakistan if they get this option. Heck, the US army sits at the Korean border. Let us have some of them sit at the Pak border too - the pentagon is always happy to waste US lives and taxpayer money anyway. This larger kashmir will have a direct border with Afghanistan, and USA will find Pakistan as unnecessary for their plans. Of course, China will throw all kinds of monkey wrenches (they kinda "own" the Karakoram through "azad" kashmir and all!) - but if we are smart, USA will play ball with us. But when have we ever been smart?

USA is the only cuntry that has any chance to force Pakistan to follow the UN resolutions and withdraw their military from LOC to the 1948 border. Pakistan will know that they will lose EVERYTHING, but they will have no choice if India and USA are after them. For once, their irrelevance will be established too.

Jay

[jayakris]

Whoa there!! Look what SM Krishna said in New York ... From Chidanand Rajghata's article ("Forget Kashmir, worry about your own survival: Krishna to Pak") in the TOI --

In an earlier comment, Krishna had said Pakistan should "vacate" the part of Kashmir it occupies (as called for by the UN resolution), a point that New Delhi seldom makes, but seems to have been provoked into remembering because of Islamabad raising the stakes through Qureshi.

I have to admit that I have always liked SM Krishna (for his support for tennis, initially). I thought I would never see the day when India would actually call Pakistan's bluff on this UN resolution stuff - which even Indians seem to think only calls for a plebiscite, forgetting the precondition that Pakistan had managed to completely keep away from world's attention thanks to India's stupid statements - which were always nothing but the silly lines like "J&K is an integral part of India". Hats off to you SMK for some straight talk, and to South Block if he was given a go on this from there.

Correction - he didn't say it in NY; had said it earlier in India; well, that is less impressive. I would have been thrilled if he said it at UN

Jay

[Sandeep]

This larger kashmir will have a direct border with Afghanistan, and USA will find Pakistan as unnecessary for their plans.

USA would have anyways done that if they wanted to, with or without the plebiscite. Who would have objected them? I still don't understand USA's funding to a terrorist nation just to gain an entry into Afghanistan. India should have been USA's natural friend in the war against terrorism especially in this region, but USA didn't even bother to approach us for any kind of help! In any case why should we allow US army into our country?

If you want a solution, I had given my version above... Do a plebiscite after a 10 year period. Not that anybody would have the guts for that.

Jay, why should there be a plebiscite. India acted perfectly during the partition, infact we didn't even ask for Kashmir till it was given to us. We have waited for the king to give his opinion and only after the Britishers acknowledged it, we moved into Kashmir. And ever since we have been protecting it from Pakistanis. Pakistanis have no right on Kashmir whatsoever. They have made a peaceful state into a bloody war. The only solution is war in that region, but can the UN keep quite just like the way they did when USA invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? In this double standard world, I don't think there is any solution for Pakistan till we become a super super power way more than USA and dictate terms to the world!

So, USA has no right to interfere in our border conflict or use it to deny us a seat in UN security council till they whole heartedly believes that we were and are right when it comes to Kashmir and give us freehand to solve the problem even if it means a war.

[arjun2761]

In this double standard world, I don't think there is any solution for Pakistan till we become a super super power way more than USA and dictate terms to the world!

Yes, that would be nice but we will need to wait a long time for that to happen. In addition, we routinely punch well below our weight class. We should be the super-power in the sub-continent but I am not sure that even can even dictate anything to Pakistan in the sub-continent -- in fact, they have generally been the aggressor with India.