Indian Premier League (IPL)

[prasen9]

That XI is by definition a sentimental pick where the sentiment is towards rewarding a certain age and not performance. We need to pick on the basis of performance with an eye towards optimizing for certain tournaments. For example, there is no particular reason if Siraj keeps his form up he should not be considered. That XI is based on "hope". Teams chosen based on hope are not going to succeed. Let people do things in the previous level before you reward them in the national XI. Otherwise, we have a bunch of people who feel entitled and are not that good anyway.

For example, Yudhvir Singh has an average of 62.5@9.49 in T20Is as a bowler. He is the definition of a sentimental pick if not a sensation-based pick. He plays one match well and he is in the XI. That sets a terrible precedence. It pretty much smacks of nepotism and people just picking based on their favorite player without any semblance of performance. Others who have a body of work can pretty-much go to hell because here comes the one with a silver spoon in his mouth. The latest Rubbish Khan and Umran, because, hey, trying out bowlers who are media sensations such as Rubbish and Umran worked out so well for us. And, btw, maybe Umran has improved a bit by virtue of some experience. No, he is out, because we have to run for the flavor of the month Yudhvir.

Kuldeep Sen 39.88@8.66 in T20s in domestics. Over 31 matches. Who cares. Just get him in. Because. Because we like him. Doesn't need to perform. No nothing.

Suyash Sharma: 4 matches in T20s, zero List-A, zero FC. 8.5 runs/over as a spinner. Who cares? Get him in. Again, because. In fact, if someone performs like Bishnoi, etc. even though they are young, we should promptly drop them and take the next flavor of the month. We should just see who did well in some aspect, does not matter if it is 1 match but it certainly has to be less than 5. And, find some balls where they did well either as a bowler or as a batsman. Ignore their total record. Just pick them. Because, in 4-5 matches, you will drop them and find the next best overnight sensation. Rinse, lathter, repeat. The communists would be proud because you indeed are an equal opportunity broker. Giving equal opportunity to everyone, whether they are good or crap. All you need is to cherry pick some balls, does not need to be a good full over even.

[Atithee]

@prasen—agree. My comment was directed toward the selection policy and specifically toward Kohlis and Rohits. Yes, Siraj like players deserve a place. I was just saying we cannot continue to carry stalwarts from the past just based on their past laurels.

[prasen9]

Agree with that policy fully Atithee. Not with some nonames (Suyash is 19 and has played only 4 T20s ever!) being selected in the national team. The only case where you do that is when you have generational talent. If Suyash is indeed that, he should be in. But, we use that trump card once in 10-20 years, not every other week. And even for that we should have proof in the school crickets, club crickets, etc. where SRT and Kambli had record partnerships, etc. Thanks for the clarification.

Rohit, Kohli, Rahul, Ashwin, and even Hardik should prove themselves every season in order to be in. That said, Kohli has indeed performed in this IPL and in the recent past seems to be getting his groove back after the horrible COVID years.

When in doubt play the next qualified young player. Oh, and that should apply to Yuzi Chahal. Get Bishnoi in and give him a run of 15 matches.

But, this IPL runs 13-14 matches plus playoffs. We've only seen 5 matches or so per team. So, let the Dhawan, Kohli, Rahanes of the world perform the whole season and then we can talk with more confidence. Ditto for the youngsters. Right now, I am only passing time creating teams from who have performed in the first few matches, which is indeed a very small sample size. I would want a full 18 match league 9 matches home and away instead of the current 9+4 or whatever. This is especially important for middle order bats. They only get to play when say 4 wickets are down and if you only have 13 matches, the MO bat maybe plays in 5-6 of them with 1-2 of them being a sacrifice situation when 1-2 overs are left and you just hit at everything. We need a longer season.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Definately will go with new ones or even unknown ones tried & tested ones have played many ICC events and they should be declared as " FAILURES". More chance to them More failures are waiting. ECB has chopped off the experienced ones and the results are there. After 2015 WC debacle big names have been thrown out. After Morgan, J Roy they are now targetting Livingstone, Bairstow, Malan, from shorter formats as Brooks, Salt, Will Jacks, Salt, Crawley doing great in recent time. There is no point of keeping Rohit, KL, Kohli, Chahal, Shami, Jadeja anymore in T20Is they have played enough and failed to win an ICC title. If we can bear Shami, Bumrah, Thakur, Arshdeep,
Axar, Jadeja getting thrashed in 10 wicket victory for opponents then there should'nt be any complain in bearing 10 wicket victory in case of Umran, Kuldeep, Charak or Sharma

[prasen9]

Agree fully. We should not play anyone who has been hit for a six in the IPL because they have been tried and tested. Also, anyone who has got out once is tried and failed because they failed not to not be out. We should also throw out anyone who has not hit every ball for a six. More chance to them, more failures waiting. We should actually take all the spectators and get them into the Indian XI because they are not tried and failed. Once they fail, throw them out immediately. Also, if you every played even gully cricket and failed, you have been tried and tested and we will go onto the guy or girl who sits on the next sit. If all spectators are out, we can actually not even pay for hotels and just go to the city where the WC is going on, find 11 guys who have Indian passports. If they have ever played cricket, they are out. And, go to the next spectator or street-wanderer. If you are 84 year old and have not played cricket ever, you are by definition not tried and tested. You qualify. Go India!

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Till now

Rohit Sharma - 7 T20I WCs
Virat Kohli - 5 T20I WCs
M Shami - 4 T20I WCs
R Ashwin - 5 T20I WCs
R Jadeja - 6 T20I WCs

All ended with a big disappointment. Give them another decade result will be same

You are definately correct even spectators will not take so many number of T20WCs to win an ICC T20I title. Will love to see some of the talented spectators getting trained and doing the job

[Mukherjee Babu]

Yes these guys have only added star value to the ICC event and emerged as unsuccessfull in all these years.

[prasen9]

I am not arguing for all old players to be retained. I am asking for those who have failed in domestics from not being given their positions. There is no logic to choosing on hope. I am all for giving lots of chances to those succeed in the domestics in A-team tours, and those who succeed in A-team tours going on to the national team. And, those who fail in the national team to be relegated to the domestics, etc.

The solution to an ineffective Chahal is not the next guy off the road which is what the guy in KKR who has only played four T20 matches is. I can guarantee that someone who has played 4 T20s ever and no List-A or FC games will not win us the WC. Maybe the Bishnois of the world can and I want them tried. Instead of the flavor of the day.

I am perfectly fine with Kohli, Rohit, Ashwin being dropped. Maybe fine with dropping the younger Shami and Jadeja too. My criterion is not who should not be there but about who should be there. Who should be there must have succeeded in domestics and have a good T20 record. The selection should be made on deeds and not on blind hope. Blind hope is a bad selection strategy.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Post Covid, India A tours has been limited ( 2020-23 : SA A, NZ A & Bangladesh A) and whatever overseas A tours gets fixed its prior to senior team tour on that country therefore many of the senior players are now picked for A team as a warm up game hence domestic performers gets either 1/2 chances to prove themselves. Previously there used to be proper A tour tri nation / four dayers fixtures where only domestic performers were picked and given proper chance.Except IPL, these guys haven't got enough opportunity to perform and come under selectors radar.

[Atithee]

Prasen, my only argument with your thinking is that you put a lot of faith in the domestics. To me, Indian domestics are useless. Yet, if that’s all we have, we must use them as a yardstick. That’s why not letting our players participate in foreign leagues is absurd.

[prasen9]

Agree with you Atithee. I do not mind people taking a flyer on someone as long as it is for exceptional cases. We need to let our players play abroad.

[prasen9]

Post Covid, India A tours has been limited ( 2020-23 : SA A, NZ A & Bangladesh A) and whatever overseas A tours gets fixed its prior to senior team tour on that country therefore many of the senior players are now picked for A team as a warm up game hence domestic performers gets either 1/2 chances to prove themselves. Previously there used to be proper A tour tri nation / four dayers fixtures where only domestic performers were picked and given proper chance.Except IPL, these guys haven't got enough opportunity to perform and come under selectors radar.

Yes, I agree. But, then at least they must have been succeeded in domestics. My thinking is as follows.

A domestic success is not a guaranteed success in internationals.

A domestic failure is almost always guaranteed to fail in internationals. I have seen very few exceptions to this observation. If you can show me domestic failures (Indian) who succeeded in internationals, I will say take the domestic failures such as Umran, Avesh, etc. and give them a permanent seat in the national team.

The domestic structure in India is very weak. But, what does it mean to fail even in these weak tournaments? Means that you are simply not that good. For young players, not as good yet.

Borrowing a term from mathematics: Domestic success is a necessary condition (almost) for international success but not a sufficient one.

I know of one exception. SRT. He was so great that he could bypass the domestics. It has to be that level for us to bypass someone from the domestics. Otherwise, let them get their chances in the domestics. Let us throw the failures out and then let us choose among the successes, which should be plenty because of the weak league and try to rack our brains on who really is international class.

Mr. Sharma, when you said Rinku, I said, sure. He at least is a domestic success. But, the others, let them prove themselves in the domestics first. Even then, I am not sure they are world class but someone who is not domestic class is never world class. Almost.

Does anyone know of players who had better international numbers than domestic (Indian)?

The only player I know of is Ambati Rayudu in ODIs. That I consider an exception to the rule. Any others?

[Rajkumar Sharma]

If you consider the core here who have played many WCs Rohit, Virat, Shami, Ashwin, Jadeja..the situation was same back on 2010 when it was hard to think dropping seniors like Ganguly, Dravid, Shewag, Agarkar, Kumble, Zaheer, Kumble but a young captain like MSD was able to take the harsh step in dropping these players and giving ample oportunity to new players for developing 2011 WC team. Gambhir & Rohit Sharma was harshly dropped from 2007 & 2011 WC squad. ECB is getting success because they are putting performance way ahead then experience.Umran, Avesh, Charak, Kuldeep, Rinku, V Iyer....these batch needed proper chance for selection in 2023 WC Squad, but again the same old faces will be selected and the campaign will get over from knockouts.

[prasen9]

I am all with you that the young players need the chance. I am all with you that they older generation should be told to move aside or dropped. I am not okay with trying some of the youngsters you push who have been given chances in domestics and have failed. Let them prove themselves in the domestics first. Kuldeep, Rinku, and V. Iyer have proved themselves in the domestics. Add Gill, Yashasvi, Tilak Varma, and several I have missed. But, we should not reward Umran, Avesh, and Charak without them having performed. We saw what happens when we put in the national team before they even learn to bowl in the domestics in the case of the first two. Maybe give some brownie points and bring in Hangargekar because we are short of pace-bowling allrounders. My only point is not to reward crappy bowlers. We have enough of them. I'd rather try Bishnoi. He is young and has done not much wrong.

I also understand that we don't have very many A-tours and thus it should be domestics to international. But, I have posted the numbers of some of the bowlers above. We have seen how rubbish Avesh and Umran are, with Umran also flashing some potential. In this IPL, Shami and Siraj are actually the best Indian pace-bowlers. Followed by Arshdeep. There is not reason to throw out Arshdeep and Bishnoi just to try the next batch of bowlers. Players need to play and learn. These two have performed reasonably well in that they deserve more chances. And, Siraj is not that old.

Mix in the likes of Axar instead of Jadeja, Sundar, etc. and we can build a good, young team. We don't need to build a non-performer's young team. We have talent who have done well.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

But, we should not reward Umran, Avesh, and Charak without them having performed. We saw what happens when we put in the national team before they even learn to bowl in the domestics in the case of the first two. Maybe give some brownie points and bring in Hangargekar because we are short of pace-bowling allrounders. My only point is not to reward crappy bowlers. We have enough of them. I'd rather try Bishnoi. He is young and has done not much wrong.

First of all we need to accept India is never been a team where we get quality fast bowlers, in every generation we had only one quality fast bowlers like Kapil, Srinath, Zaheer and rest all we got is by giving time to evolve by playing matches after matches. In this generation we were lucky to have four quality fast bowlers like Shami, Bumrah, Ishant Sharma, Umesh ( test) in prime & Siraj with an improved bowling speed. If we look domestic we only have Umran, Avesh, injury proned Prasidh, Arshdeep, from uncapped talent is very much limited Charak, Mohsin Khan, Vyshak, Mukesh Chowdhury and we have to find that match winning bowler by polishing these guys only. When it comes to pace bowling allrounders our IPL franchises are not interested in giving proper chances to indian allrounders, Venky Iyer/ Dube is not bowling, Arshad Khan has been dropped after few matches, Shardul Thakur is batting much lower at present he is better then Russell to bat at 4/5. Instead franchises are promoting foreign allrounders like Green, Mitch Marsh