Are Indians Born Losers?

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Post by Sandeep »

Bsharma I didnot get your point on that you do not expect Sania to return to college. As I mentioned earlier she is going for college. And Somdev also is in USA doing his degree, so was Harsh isn't it? I mean how come they are different?
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Post by BSharma »

But sports in India are like, even you give 100% there is no gaurantee that you will succeed.
A 100% effort does not guarantee success in any country.

Sandeep, it appears to me that you should bang your head on a wall ( :wink: ) and all of a sudden you will get the message that FirstIndiaFan is trying to get across to us.
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Post by BSharma »

Bsharma I didnot get your point on that you do not expect Sania to return to college. As I mentioned earlier she is going for college. And Somdev also is in USA doing his degree, so was Harsh isn't it? I mean how come they are different?
Sandeep, you never give up but I like this quality of yours. :D

Well, well,well, where should I start? Let us start from Harsh. He went to a college in USA and he did very well educationally and in tennis at a very tough college in a difficult major. He ended his education prematurely because he felt that he had to concentrate on tennis. US colleges will allow their tennis players to take one (or is it two?) semester off in four years to play on the pro-tour, and it is not enough to do well on the pro-tour. Will Harsh go back to college while he is playing full-time on the Tour? No, says me. I think that Harsh is one smart cookie and one day he will go back to college after his playing days are over and you will see a very successful businessman in Harsh.

Sania will not be able to attend college regularly if she will be on the Tour full-time from now onwards. She might go back to college later on once her playing days are over. If the college in Hyderabad will give her a college degree while she is spending most of her time away from Hyderabad playing tennis full-time then do you think that she is deserving of that degree?

Somdev is too talented a tennis player to waste four years playing tennis for a US college team. I expect him to leave college and play full-time on the Tour before he earns his college diploma from Virginia.
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Post by Sandeep »

No Bsharma what I meant by 100% is, somethings are beyond your scope to control and there is no gaurantee that it ill happen even to the best. Harsh was our Best singles tennis player, but how many came forward to sponsor him? That is what I was trying to say.
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Post by BSharma »

Sandeep,

I also stand by my previous observation that a 100% effort and a #1 ranking does not guarantee sponsorship in most countries. This happens in many countries and is not limited to India. Most shooters, archers, wrestlers, etc in USA who have won Olympic medals have no sponsors.

A former resident physician's (in my department) husband won a gold medal in swimming in 1992 Olympics and he had no sponsors. His wife supported him financially and after the Olympics were over his only job prospects were to swim professionally in Europe or become a high school swimming coach in USA. He decided to do neither and became a great house-husband.
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Post by Sandeep »

But see your friend was able to support her Husband. How many Indians can do that???
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Post by BSharma »

Sandeep, she was a medical student when he was trying to win a medal in 1992. She had loans up to her neck because they were not earning any money! Their plight was not any better than Indian players getting raised in India.

Where there is a will, there is a way.
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Post by Sandeep »

Hmm, Bsharma you are right. Where there is a will, there is a way. But again how many Indian banks do you think will give loans. And I am sure your friend wouldn't have mortgaged anything for her loan. Educational loans are given very easily in USA. Talk about India, all students mortgage some or the other property to take an educational loan. And how worthy do you think it is to mortgage something which you own when you are not even sure of what your future would be.

And one more point is your friend did all these things when he was a swimmer of olympic caliber. Sachin stopped studying (10th class) after he got selected into Indian team. Even Indians do that at certain stage.

But the problem is, we are talking about upcoming players and not about people who are olympic caliber. Even to support an upcoming player in India you need Bank loans, which are not easily available.
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Post by Dhruv »

Umm no. Student loans in India are available without mortaging land and property. I know about that as a fact. There are specific student loan plans which do not require mortgaging land and property. If you are going to a top school (eg. IIM) a lot of banks do not require you to have a co-signer either and will give loans just on your earning potential. Things have changed a lot in India people sometimes just aren't aware of these changes. Bank loans and credit in India these days are free flowing to a large extent maybe not as much as North America but almost as much as Europe.
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Post by Sandeep »

Dhruv you are right, if you go to IIM you get loans easily and the reason for it is a job gaurantee. I accept it has become easy, but I think we have to mortgage property if you are going to some moderate college or higher studies in abroad. Definitely it is not for free. I know atleast 10 people who mortgaged their property for education in USA.
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Post by FirstIndiaFan »

Guys,
Great Long Discussion! Based on all the evidence presented, could we now conclude that Indians are not 'born loosers'? While genes play a small role there is enough genetic veriety in India, thanks to the 'melting pot' of 5000 years ago, that we can find kids who potentially can be world beaters.

A lot depends on opportunities, facilities (the debate about grass vs. clay vs. hard vs. cow dung vs. BS), finances, corporate & govt. support, mental strength & motivation, ability to sacrifice a lot, parental support and parents getting away from the norm of insisting on education, role models..etc..etc.

In my very humble opinion, if we can produce a top 100 player, we can produce a top 5 player too. I believe after you are in top 100 you have the game to beat pretty much any one. After that the difference is in the head (motivation, smarts and ability to handle pressure) and the heart (physical stamina and never say die attitude)! The motivated ones and strong at heart rise up to be the cream of the crop! We have had top 100s before and do have more on the way, both among men and women.

Now we need to find the ones who also have a good head on their shoulders and strong heart beat! Then never again will a news paper be able to bellow out a headline saying Indian are 'born loosers'. If they did I will use that paper as a toilet paper! :D

I Rest My Case!

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Post by knarayen »

Good summary by FirstIndiaFan. Let us keep exploring ways to get an Indian player into the top 5. I have a feeling that the desire must come from a small group of travelling pros from India (like Spain's Moya, Corrteja, etc) who push each other to do better and better until one of them gets to the very top.

that's how Moya got there for a brief while.

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Post by genius »

FirstIndiaFan wrote: In my very humble opinion, if we can produce a top 100 player, we can produce a top 5 player too. I believe after you are in top 100 you have the game to beat pretty much any one.
hmm... When the likes of Hewitt,roddick and 8 time slam winner Agassi are tearing their hairs off on how to beat Federer ,that sounds pretty absurd if you think about it.

I don't think,infact i wud go as far to assert unambiguously,that a top 70 or even a top 30 player cannot beat the top 5, except on the latter's run of offdays,bad form,return from layoffs,injury hampered.
Safin you could say is the biggest culprit here.But his lifestyle and temperament is well known.

This ofcourse excludes up and comers like gael monfils who may show glimpses of their future potential as they come up without the consistency of the top 5.

In other words, the better quality players need to play well below
their A game for lower bracket players to win.Higher the opponent one faces, one may want to be more careful on the day.

How many times does one remember Sampras suddenly serving and volleying impeccably once he sees agassi on the other side of the court,irrespective of how he had played earlier?

That's how one has to be.
After that the difference is in the head (motivation, smarts and ability to handle pressure) and the heart (physical stamina and never say die attitude)!
While i am not saying these things don't play their role, courage or spirit without the required strength,skill or expertise is often a futile exercise. Unless you want to believe like Hitler " A strong willed man can accomplish miracles blah blah" while the "inferior slavs" of the red army were actually chasing the wehrmacht all the way to Berlin :)
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Post by FirstIndiaFan »

genius,
Absurd..uh? That was an ingeneous comment if I ever heard one. I guess geniuses don't have to think about it..they can shoot from the hip!

The Federer's and Sampras's come once in a generation. Again, I clearly said it was IMHO & I firmly stand by it!

The difference IS in the head and the heart at the top level. Technically and talentwise a lot of these guys are close to each other! But the geniuses (the true ones, like Samprases and Frederers) know how to pull that one miracle shot out at the right time! They do that time and again. That is the difference maker...and that does come from the heart & the head. Ones who can do that are a rare breed indeed!

I won't waste the forumers' time in listing how many top 30's and top 100's have taken out the top 5's. It has happened more than once.

Before the dialogue was hijacked by the geniuos, the key statement I was making was, if we can produce top 100s, we can produce top 5's. The difference is in the head and the heart!

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Post by genius »

FirstIndiaFan wrote:The Federer's and Sampras's come once in a generation. Again, I clearly said it was IMHO & I firmly stand by it!
You think whatever you want.

I felt your views,placed on a public forum, were way too naive and needed to be corrected.

But then its only for open minded people willing to learn.

The difference IS in the head and the heart at the top level.
your blind beliefs are NOT facts.

This is not the first time i am hearing this ignorant nonsense either :)

This comes from mainly mediocre analysts who were not highly gifted themselves(and neither have high intellect) and can't relate gifts to the incredible skill levels the top players attain by nurturing that gifts.

Federer's artistic talents,Agassi's return of serve and baseline game ,Sampras's impeccable serving and volleying, Ivanesivic's phenomenal serve,mcenroe's magic at the net comes from the heart and head isn't it?

These gifts gives them an advantage in skills that enables them to take an decisive advantage over their less gifted opponents. but that does not mean their opponents have less heart or desire and are hot headed.Its just their human limitations

but then you have it or you don't..and those who don't have it ain't got a clue usually
Technically and talentwise a lot of these guys are close to each other!
because you say so? so the santoros,arthurs,spadeas and carlsens are only a bit less talented than federer and safin ?:)

any wonder i had to use the term "absurd"?
That is the difference maker...and that does come from the heart & the head. Ones who can do that are a rare breed indeed!
Another braindead comment.

have you ever asked yourself if other players had the arsenal of a sampras or federer to pull these "miracle shots" off?

does coria have the serve of sampras for instance?

does johansson or bjorkman have the artistic ground strokes of federer?

haven't federer and sampras lost many times by failing to do it at the "right time" too?

A player can only do to the best of his ability even in tight situations.

will even their best be good enough against a superior gifted player who has superior firepower at his disposal?

In tight situations , sampras and federer do the same. they try to pull something from the superior arsenal at their disposal and their multiple talents will ensure their chances of pulling something off are more brighter than others.

for example we often wud have seen phenomenal serving from sampras when in trouble. that's the big weapon he had and he tried to use it to bail him out.

it didnt work all the time. but it worked enuf to win him 14 titles

similarly federer will try to do the same ...though he cud not pull himself out against Safin in melbourne

Even with the coolest and smartest head and the most determined heart, that's what a human can do. push yourself to do the best.

Its your skill levels(which in turn is determined a lot by talent) that will speak many times than not

ask yourself a simple question.

Where does the "resources" to carry out the wishes of your heart and the ideas from your head come from ?

you need the skills and resources to carry out your wishes and ideas. its that bloody simple.

I won't waste the forumers' time in listing how many top 30's and top 100's have taken out the top 5's. It has happened more than once.[\quote]

Only when the top 5 are not on song on a given day or phase due to some reasons. Otherwise their superior game wud usually make them win
if we can produce top 100s, we can produce top 5's.
we have produced ramesh krishnan,ramanathan,the vijay decade or so ago!

but we have not produced senior slam winners or no 1 to date.

Go figure!
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