Are Indians Born Losers?

FirstIndiaFan · Post by **FirstIndiaFan** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:46 pm

Hey Guys,

Read This!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... ~in~sports?

This ought to get your dandor up! The experts think, this is why Indians are born loosers:

1) Sociological & Genetic factors causes sports deficient culuture

2) 'Indianness' - Cereal Rich Diet & Vitamin Deficient Nutrition causes us to perform below par

3) Lack of muscle power in terms of bulk and oxygenation capability

4) 'Thrifty' genes developed over the periods of famine and decease

5) Indians have 33 per cent body fat compared to 25 per cent in Caucasian or African ethnic groups

More research by Indians and some authoritative statements. I am sure none of you would disagree with any of this..right? Hogwash! I know we have had the discussions about lack of muscles on Indians before. This is a bit more comprehensive topic.

Have at it guys...I would like to see a torrent of responses to this post! I'll add my 2 Rupees worth later!

PS: I would like to particularly hear from our physician friends... BSharma..your valuable insight please!

A Gym Bound India Fan #1

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:56 pm

I have been reading about this issue for many years and have several research articles in my "Sports Medicine folders" in my office. Some time back I gave a lecture on this topic to physicians interested in sports medicine. I will try to summarize the information in the next few days.

A quick summary, "The best athletes in the world are a result of good genes and optimal training. Genetic endowment is simply the stage on which the ultimate performance is created. Physiological gifts are easily squandered without the right training, nutrition, and mental desire. People are born with certain abilities, but they have to work with those abilities to become really good."

I will be interested to hear the opinions of the forum members.

Sandeep · Post by **Sandeep** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:06 pm

India fan, I feel papers write all these things to create some sensational news out of nothing. I don't know how 1st point pertains to India. sociological and genetic factors causes sports deficient culture? I don't accept this. Compare number of people in India who go for cricket coaching with number of people who go for coaching for any sport in any country. I think India should outnumber every other country. And the craze for cricket in India can be compared to craze of any othe rsport in any country. It is definitely if not more atleast equal to soccer in england, football in America etc. These things will not happen if there is no interest for sports. Probably WTA must have seen craziest tennis fans in Hyderabad.

Remaining all your points go well with rural people. That too not all. According to census we have 287 million people in urban areas and by 2005 according to projections we have 350 millions in urban areas. I don't think any of the points above mentioned except probably 5th point apply to urban people. I don't believe that they are suffering with mal nutrition or something. 350 millions is more than the population of most existing countries in world. Body fat is concerned it can be reduced anytime. A bit of hard work is needed. I feel India has its own advantages over other countries.

I feel all out sports people are skillful. Most of the sports persons who reached top have extremely good skills. MOst of them have talent which I don't see in Africans.

Infrastructure and funds are key more than any of the points mentioned above.

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:23 pm

Dr Shashank Joshi, endocrinologist with Lilavati Hospital in Mumbai, blames the thrifty genes that Indians have developed following bouts of famine and epidemics over the years.

"As a genetic conservation mechanism, our genes learnt to hoard fat in order to survive," he says.

But the thrifty genes are now making Indians living in a zip-zapzoom urban milieu susceptible to obesity and more-fat-less-muscle creatures.

"Indians have 33 per cent body fat compared to 25 per cent in Caucasian or African ethnic groups," says Joshi, who is studying the metabolic activity of ethnic groups in India.

Obesity is at an all-time high in USA yet the US athletes win more medals than other countries in Olympics and world championships. Comparing elite athletes and general population is like comparing apples and oranges.

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:33 pm

Let me provide some background material about the "science" of genetic factors relating to sports. This information will be pretty basic for some people and for others it will help them to understand this topic better.

Genes are part of the DNA molecules in every cell of the body that carry information responsible for the subsequent production of specific chains of amino acids. The proteins in the body are made up of amino acids. The genotype is the combination of thousands of genes within the body and is referred to as the genetic potential of a person.

The extent to which the various genes are expressed in the body will represent the anatomical, biochemical, physiological and behavioral characteristics of a person. The characteristics that are expressed are known as the phenotypes, and examples are the brown color of the eyes of most Indians, the height of a person, the resting heart rate, the body structure, etc.

Some phenotypes can be altered and others are not. For example the color of the eyes will remain the same but one can change the body weight by dieting or eating more food. For a particular phenotype there are people who are superior responders, average responders, poor responders, quick responders, or late bloomers. Some people can lose weight more easily than others (superior versus poor responders), some people can learn a new sport quickly and others take a longer time to learn a new sports but catch up eventually (quick responders versus late bloomers).

Genes have a big influence on the height, length of trunk, and length of arms and legs of a person but small-to-moderate effect on circumferences, girths, and breadths of various body parts. Genes also have an affect on muscle size and composition (percentage of fast-twitch and slow-twitch fibers). Genes also influence the size of the lungs, size of the heart, the branching of the blood vessels in the lungs as well as the size and structure of the coronary arteries. Genes have a large effect on VO2max, maximal heart rate, and maximal lung ventilation. Evidence suggests that cardiovascular endurance (e.g., the total amount of work that one can perform in 90 min) is even more strongly affected by genes than is VO2max.

more later on ......

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:31 am

Scientists rely on good research to answer their questions. How good is the research on genes and sports? Pretty good. How good is it for genes and elite athletes? Pretty flimsy. Why? Because after I searched the medical scientific literature I found that most of the scientific research was done on regular athletes and very few involved Olympic or world champions. Does it matter? I think that elite athletes are a different breed than regular weekend warriors. Many Indians have the body structure of Milkha Singh, Dhyan Chand, Tendulkar, Sania, Rathore, PT Usha, Anju George, etc but they are not world class athletes. The latter have qualities that make them different from regular people like me. Ideally, the research should involve elite athlets who are identical twins. I did find a few such studies and I will discuss them later.

Most non-physicians know well that if the parents are very tall then their child will likely be tall. If the parents are short and muscular then they should not expect a call from the coach of the NBA Los Angeles Lakers team but their child could shine in gymnastics, wrestling or weight lifting. Sometimes unexpected things happen, and child turns out to be significantly taller than the parents and it may have to do with the unexpressed genes in the parents but one that was present in the grandparents. Thus we have learned that all genes do not always express themselves as phenotypes.

Several genes are involved in the make-up of an Olympic champion. The child of two Olympic champions will not necessarily have the phenotype of an Olympic champion. Some genes may not express themselves in that child and this occurs often. How many children of elite athletes have become elite athletes also? Russians and Chinese would have produced Olympic champions by the bundles if this happened all the time.

More later on. The interesting stuff is coming soon.......

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:25 am

Depending on the sport, many body systems are involved. Take the example of a long distance runner and one sees that the cariovascular, repiratory, thermoregulatory, neuromuscular and metabolic systems are involved in the success of these athletes. A number of genes affect each of the body systems. In addition, there are many interactions among the genes, and between the genes and the environment. This issue is so complex that the scientists will be unlikely to produce a champion by altering one or two genes.

Coaches, trainers, nutritionists, exercise physiologists, physicians, genetics experts, psychiatrists, athletes and their parents, and many other people involved in the making of a champion know that many other factors are involved.

A study published in Int J Sports Med 2001 May;22(4):250-5 reported about an Olympic gold medalist in a 20 km walking race and his identical twin brother who was also an Olympic athlete in the same event but had an inferior performance. Both twins had undergone the same rigorous training for 19 years starting at 15 years of age under the guidance of the same coach. Both twins had similar physiological attributes (body mass index, cardiac mass index, oxygen utilization, etc) but very different personality traits.

Sports scientists believe that the factors involved in the making of a world champion include,

1. the actual state of a number of complex phenotypes before training

2. proper training, rest, and nutrition

3. the ability of these phenotypes to adapt to the training, rest, and nutrition.

Elite athletes are probably those who begin with high levels of the characteristics (phenotypes) needed for success in their particular sports and also have superior adaptations in those characteristics after training. Only a small percentage of the population has genetically high levels of the phenotypes needed for success, not all of these will train, and only a small percentage of those who do train will be superior responders.

To be continued .....

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:32 am

Sorry to interrupt your discourse, Bhushan But I had to

Sandeep · Post by **Sandeep** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:08 am

I wanted to do that after he finished, but since you broke his flow let me also do it.

knarayen · Post by **knarayen** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:28 pm

Bhushan, amazing stuff........will have to use you as a consultant to help boost the "phenotypes" for tennis in my kids....looks like they are going to need it.!!!

Thanks for the health/fitness lesson.

Cheers,
Krish

FirstIndiaFan · Post by **FirstIndiaFan** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:02 pm

Bhushan,
Great insight! Thanks for the effort. Agree with a lot of it. However, I have some basic questions about the study that pertains to Indians.

1) Can one classify all Indians to be having the same gene pool? Wasn't India the melting pot between 3 and 10 thousand years ago? Didn't we get an influx of genes just as America gets it today? Or did it all meld so well that we all are equally mediocre?

2) What is this nonsense about thrify genes? Was India the only country that had the famines and diseases that caused our genes to be thrifty? How about the African continent? In fact inspite of similar or perhaps worse calamities, some African countries seem to be producing world class atheletes in areas where the developed world with all their scientific might can't match...particulary long distance running.

3) Why are NRI's kids, who grow up outside India, seem to grow bigger and stronger...this is just a feeling based on unscientific personal observation ...granted nutrition is better. This better nutrion seems toa ffect their height as well.

Mark my words though. China...in the next Olympics is going to make a big bang. They will be competing with US for medals..in fact they already did in the last one. They will be threatening in many areas currently dominated by the developed world. Chinese, like Indians, should have thrify genes too..perhaps even thriftier!

I think you have the genetic material that you are born with. But all Indian genes are not created equal. Some will excel at Gymanstics, some at tennis etc. We can not blame lack of performance on the genes...there must be some sports our 'thrify' genes are good at. Right now, its a different matter that we collectively don't excel at anything! That brings me to my point!

There are several reasons why we do not do well. Among them is lack of opportunity, lack of competition, lack of vision at the higher levels, lack of focus, children too dependent on parents for too long, regionalism, nepotism, lack of good nutrition among many others. I know I am ruffling some feathers here...but that is the idea!

A Ruffled India Fan #1

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:21 pm

I am sorry for the slow postings on this topic. My two college going kids have come home for spring break and did not bring their computers. My laptop computer (Dell 8600) broke down completely two days back and is now an expensive paper weight, and my Dell desktop lost its Internet connection that Dell was able to correct finally at 5 a.m. today (my wife stayed up all night long doing the work while the Dell technicians gave her the instructions). That left the 5th Dell desktop computer at home with 5 people wanting it at the same time. I ended up 5th in line. I also took time off from work to spend a couple of days with my kids during spring break so I was trying to post information about genes on the fly.

Thrifty gene: The "thrifty gene" theory suggests that some people can more efficiently use food resources, and in time of famine they are able to survive better than others without the "thrifty gene". The flip side is that when these people have access to abundant food supply then they become obese and are at risk for developing type 2 diabetes mellitus. This has happened amongst Pacific Islanders, some American-Indian tribes in USA, and in Indian immigrants in USA/Canada/UK, etc.

The "thrifty gene" theory has nothing to do with the production of elite athletes in any part of the world. I wish the Endocrinologist in Mumbai Dr Shashank Joshi had not used this theory in context with lack of elite athletes in India.

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:27 pm

3) Why are NRI's kids, who grow up outside India, seem to grow bigger and stronger...this is just a feeling based on unscientific personal observation ...granted nutrition is better. This better nutrion seems toa ffect their height as well.

I believe that Indian kids are growing bigger and taller whether they live in India or in Europe/North America. The Indian kids in Europe/NA appear to be slightly bigger than their counterparts in India, however.

Why? Because these children have access to better nutrition and health care.

BSharma · Post by **BSharma** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:35 pm

I think you have the genetic material that you are born with. But all Indian genes are not created equal. Some will excel at Gymanstics, some at tennis etc. We can not blame lack of performance on the genes...there must be some sports our 'thrify' genes are good at. Right now, its a different matter that we collectively don't excel at anything! That brings me to my point!

There are several reasons why we do not do well. Among them is lack of opportunity, lack of competition, lack of vision at the higher levels, lack of focus, children too dependent on parents for too long, regionalism, nepotism, lack of good nutrition among many others. I know I am ruffling some feathers here...but that is the idea!

You are stealing my thunder!

I was going to discuss the above point in my next and last posting, and conclude how Indians have the capability to become world class athletes, and how India should use techniques to find the right kind of children for the right kind of sports. Much of the latter is from research done in USSR and old Soviet Bloc countries many years back. It was finally partly published some years back and I used this technique in selecting children for my baseball team. How well did I do? Of the 16 players on my team, two became the starting quarterbacks of two top ten ranked high-school football teams in USA. How is that for a great intro for my last posting that will come within the next 24 hours.

knarayen · Post by **knarayen** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:47 pm

Hi Bhushan,

This is great. I have noticed that the Australian Institute of Sport has done some amazing amount of research in this area too. But they dont publicise it very much. For example the swimmer Thorpe has been trained for many years there to become a world champion. All athletes in Australia at some point or another have been through that institution. I met an Australian (Andrew Painter) who worked with Nails Carmichael (another tough aussie coach). Andrew had done survival training in the Australian outback as part of his fitness training, and he rose to about 220 in the world a few years ago. He now trains Phillipousis and Hewitt. These guys are serious athletes like you wouldnt believe.

Do you have any insight into what is going on at that institution?

I watched Painter work on some kids here at the Lakes Tennis Academy a few miles from my house. He is a serious bit of work.

Cheers,
Krish