Paris Olympics 2024

[arjun2761]

The arbitrator wrote it almost asking for an appeal. If she does not have the authority, then why is this even a court of appeal? If they have to rubber stamp the organizations? In many cases, they have ruled against the organization.

I think I see the problem here. The court here seems to think it can only decide when the rules - written by the organization - are ambiguous. Which courts do - interpret rules.

But, courts also say that things are unconstitutional. This court seems to say that it cannot rule something is unconstitutional. Or flat out wrong. Then, who has the authority to state that the rules are inhuman? Or flat out discriminative, etc.?

This isn't a judicial court of appeals in a sovereign country's judicial system. This CAS is essentially an appeal mechanism within an organization with respect to its internal rules and procedures (in this case an Olympic wrestling event). By analogy, if you had been denied tenure, your university may have set up an appeal process to appeal the denial (probably the dept head or some other set of folks to decide the appeal).

As far as more fundamental challenges based on a constitution, it would have to violate some right provided by the Swiss constitution since the IOC is a Swiss organization subject to Swiss law. For that, they would have to appeal to the initial judicial court in the Swiss court system with subsequent appeals all the way to the top court in the land. By analogy, you may be able to challenge a denial of tenure to a state or federal court system in the US, if the denial was based on race or gender or some other basis that falls foul of the US laws (the federal civil rights act for all entities and also the constitutional EPC for all governmental entities).

[usaindia]

Not sure how many know of these Given to top 8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_diploma

[jayakris]

Not sure how many know of these Given to top 8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_diploma

Nice find! I never knew about this. So there are top-8 diplomas they can get. Wow.

Well, they don't even list the eligible names, so the Indians will have to live with the (more prestigious) JBSI Top-8 listing

(JBSI Top-8: "Jayakrishnan-Basu Sports-India Top-8" )

[prasen9]

This isn't a judicial court of appeals in a sovereign country's judicial system. This CAS is essentially an appeal mechanism within an organization with respect to its internal rules and procedures (in this case an Olympic wrestling event). By analogy, if you had been denied tenure, your university may have set up an appeal process to appeal the denial (probably the dept head or some other set of folks to decide the appeal).

As far as more fundamental challenges based on a constitution, it would have to violate some right provided by the Swiss constitution since the IOC is a Swiss organization subject to Swiss law. For that, they would have to appeal to the initial judicial court in the Swiss court system with subsequent appeals all the way to the top court in the land. By analogy, you may be able to challenge a denial of tenure to a state or federal court system in the US, if the denial was based on race or gender or some other basis that falls foul of the US laws (the federal civil rights act for all entities and also the constitutional EPC for all governmental entities).

I agree with your explanation of the CAS/Swiss constitution.

I differ slightly on the university example. The appeal to the university - department head/dean/provost (that is the chain it would follow) - could mention (with evidence) that the denial was based on race/gender, etc. or with evidence why it was illegal. And, then the university appeals people can take that evidence into account and reverse the denial of tenure. Actually, when there is serious evidence, they do that because they do not want to be running afoul of U.S. laws. That would perhaps not work when the appeal is breaking new ground, i.e., not on established grounds or if the law is not clear or unwritten.

In an European university, I was denied travel allowance for a weekend when I had worked non-stop for 15 days or something and did not want to travel without a day's rest. I pointed out to them the law of the Bundesland (province, I suppose) with a pointer to the code appealing that I should be getting pay by the law of the land (as opposed to the rule of the university) and because it being unfair to not allow a day's rest after working two weeks flat out. They reversed their decision on appeal and paid me instead of me having to go to court (which I honestly would not have for a small matter). So, appeals processes have to take into account the law of the land. In this case, maybe the appeal that Phogat filed did not perhaps say that a Swiss law was violated and thus perhaps the CAS cannot take that into account.

Anyway, I hope that this results in the wrestling federations or IOC changing the rules to something more meaningful. Reforms such as allowing women a bit more leeway (periods, etc.), writing out the rules clearly using he/she (not just he), maybe requiring weight checks before every match, etc. and allowing medals to be retained if the failure is at towards the end, etc. Not holding my breath but hoping.

[Mugundan]

What seems to be missing is a clear reference to the set of rules that needed to be followed for Paris Olympics.
Say, something like "Paris Olympic wrestling rules" or "UWW rules applicable to 2024 Olympics" or "UWW rules 2019 version shall apply to Paris Olympics".
There is also no clarity about where the weight tolerance could apply. "World Cup and other UWW tournaments" is vague (in 2019 rules that were apparently applied). Which are those UWW tournaments?
There is no mention of Olympic rules either in the 2019 version or 2023 version. Surprisingly, there is no mention of World championships either in categorization of competitions.
Not to speak of grammatical mistakes plus reference to "he" alone in certain clauses. Short of saying this is crap, the sole arbitrator repeatedly points out the vague explanations of rules.

[Atithee]

^^Apparently this is a translation of a French document. It seems like a child’s middle school project. I’m shocked at the incompetency given the importance of the document. BTW, "he" was regularly used to indicate a person until 20-30 years ago. Maybe this document was originally written in Greek in 1896.

[jayakris]

I have not even read the full judgment, and am going by what is said here - I am too disgusted to read the judgement.

The theme that is coming through clearly from what @mugu and others have laid out is that only the run of the mill issues in the rules were given to the judge; she agreed with all of it, and said she couldn't rule in Vinesh's favor. This was fully expected!!

So the pro Bono Lawyers did not come up with anything original as an argument, and nobody pointed out to them that Vinesh's was a unique case, to even think of anything original that might allow the arbitrator judge to rule in her favor. The highfalutin Indian pair lawyers that we sent fell flat on their faces too, after having multiple days to get into it and offer the judge a chance to rule in her favor. They totally whiffed.

They all kept arguing the rules that applied to everybody else and argued that those were serious issues, which was nothing but a dead-end. The judge could not rule in only Vinesh's favor, if the rules in question were applied to everybody else (note, I did not say "applicable"), and she could only point out to UWW the problems and ask them to change it.

To get a ruling for Vinesh, an argument should have been made that something was applied ONLY in Vinesh's case and that it was unfair and wrong. The 100mg rule should not have even been mentioned anywhere in the appeal. Just saying "she didn't meet weight; agree; but here is what happened after that" was what was needed.

There was a unique argument in Vinesh's case, which Atithee and I here have clearly brought out. It was clear within a few hours after she missed the weight limit. Just as I worried then itself, as time went on these lawyers only brought up everything else and royally screwed it up -- the great cooks spoiling the broth with too many ingredients.

The incompetent lawyers from Paris and from India and all the Indian officials there, did such a disservice to Vinesh. It is sad.

[jayakris]

My suggestion. Vinesh should appeal on the basis of lawyer malpractice. Do not blame CAS or the arbitrator. There was clear lawyer malpractice, and she can find other lawyers to make the case that these guys did not argue the real case that was there. The arbitrator herself has given enough evidence for this. Not deliberate malpractice, but it was malpractice nonetheless. The victim should be able to get an appeal through, if she was not represented properly by the lawyers.

I bet the Swiss courts will agree. This case is very much alive. It may take a couple of years or more, but it is worth it.

Seriously. Can somebody tell Vinesh to follow that path? I am sure the Indian opposition would jump at the chance, as they can claim that lawyer malpractice was deliberate (though we know it wasn't. It was only incompetence, even from of the best lawyers from India). But Vinesh should not think of the politics here. She should do whatever will get her the medal that she richly deserved. I don't like the Indayyae opposition one bit, but if they can get behind her and get her and India a medal, more power to them.

[Atithee]

^^Jay, please read the full judgment. Also, the highfalutin ones appeared remotely. I think being in-person for a case of this magnitude would have been better. The more I read it—I haven’t read it fully yet and don’t have the heart to do it TBH—the more I believe that this case was argued along all the lines that should not even have entered the arguments. Indian lawyers are quite good; I don’t know why they chose this route. Maybe they saw precedents or thought playing the woman card may gain them sympathy from the female arbitrator.

P.S. I don’t think malpractice will work and there is zero chance it will happen. Nor do I think it should. Part of me believes that this is Karma and while legally Vinesh deserved a silver, there a lot of moral issues here that make me think it’s divine intervention. So, the two pro bono lawyer SI team disagrees for the first time here

[jayakris]

Why wouldn't a malpractice appeal work? The true injustice done to her was not argued at all!!!

(Okay, I should read it to see if any of our points were brought up at all, before saying that )

Nah, I don't agree with any moral issue. She followed the rules everybody else followed. In fact many others would have found ways to immorally get that medal. Just falling down, fainting, and speaking incoherently for a couple of hours was all that was needed for an Olympic silver you know!

[Atithee]

^^The moral issues I refer to are all pre-Olympics. Everything at the Olympics is good.

[jayakris]

Okay. But even before Olympics, she followed the rules, patchy and ad-hoc as they were in India. Plus, much of what she did was in response to confusion others caused to harm her chances, and then crimes others committed on her, that started off the mess much earlier. That all brought it to the state when others created the confusion she was working around (and perhaps the others had no options either). It was not all Vinesh's fault. So I would give her a lot of benefit of the doubt and wiggle room on moral issues there too.

[Atithee]

Jay, I think it’s best to not get into the “moral/ethical” issues here and let the sleeping dogs lie. I can say a lot more, but will not. Others have expressed their reservations here already. Suffice to say, there are many who think she doesn’t “deserve” a medal but I don’t think anyone thinks that the Olympic rule is good in general. I keep going back to the word “karma” as much as I despise its usage in English today.

[jayakris]

Maybe you are right. I have generally stayed away from looking into the details of that whole mess in India with Vinesh, as it was all so unpleasant every which way. So you all know better.

But "karma" or not, morals or not, I want that medal for India that Vinesh earned there!!

As for some good things happening for Vinesh though, I just read that her advertisement rate has gone up now from 25 lakhs to 1 crore. Not chump change.

Neeraj has apparently gone up to 4 crores, by the way. Indian sportsmen are making a lot of money these days. At least some of them.

[ssp]

Can we rename this thread to include the Paralympics?

We had 5-8-6 in Tokyo

In Paris, we have 3-5-7 with almost a week to go.