T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by Sin Hombre »

Pakistan are terrible so even 119 was enough for us to win.

Bumrah obviously is world class and the only world class player in this team. Arguably Kuldeep as well.

Rohit and Kohli are not going to drop themselves so what's the best we can hope for. They will obviously drop Shivam Dube especially once we go to West Indies and play Kuldeep. I hope they drop Jadeja as well and play Jaiswal. Team will still have a lot of passengers for the modern T20 game including Rohit, Kohli, Hardik and Siraj.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by jayakris »

Oh we won?? I was about to come post that we should stop playing this stupid game if we lost to a team that lost to even the USA :)
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by ssp »

Really brainless batting by the entire team. Pant had a lot of luck and when we needed him to just take singles, he tries crazy shots. Dubey was pathetic. Bumrah won us this match....and Pakistan's lunacy.

Just give the trophy to Australia now.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by prasen9 »

Pant give 4-5 chances or half chances but he chanced his arm. And, he did fine. After Bumrah, Pant's contribution was the most. I have criticized him in the past, but credit when credit is due. And, all-round play of Axar, who is not as hyped as Jadeja but a performing version of him in T20Is. The 3 run over in the 16th over was incredible. Axar is the most accurate of our spinners. He will bowl end to end straight. Bad bowler to have when the pitch is flat but very useful when the pitch will do the job.

It is really sad that Jaiswal is sitting this out despite being a fabulous batter. Only reason is that we have to accomodate Rohit, Kohli as openers and Pant too at #3. Essentially, batting in the MO is hard because you have five fielders outside. The failures like Rohit, Kohli, Pant, etc. get shunted up and rewarded. The true openers like Jaiswal, Gill (in LOIs), Gaikwad, etc. are kicked out to facilitate the blue-eyed boys. We need to stop this.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by Sin Hombre »

We won't stop anything until Rohit, Kohli and Dravid are thrown out.

The best we can hope for is Jaiswal coming for Dube and Kuldeep for Jadeja. That will already improve this team a lot.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by prasen9 »

Jaiswal is our best T20I batter after SkAY in T20Is by performance. It is criminal to keep him out and have Dube in the team. And, maybe to accomodate Pant, who cannot bat fast. I would rather go with:

Rohit, Yashasvi, Kohli, SkAY, Axar, Pant, Hardik, Jadeja/Kuldeep, 3 pacers ...
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by Atithee »

Pant cannot bat fast?
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by arjun2761 »

Pant has easily been our best player in the WC so far. He has the most runs at one of the best strike rates. If they had a way to calculate something like the fielding WAR in baseball, he may also be our best fielder with his catching and his range as a keeper.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by arjun2761 »

Thought I'd share an American desi joke doing the rounds.

Pakistan was beaten by India's A team after losing earlier to India's H1B team. :D
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by prasen9 »

Atithee wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:21 pm Pant cannot bat fast?
No, he cannot. That is what the reality tells us. He cannot bat fast in T20Is to be more precise. Till date. His SR is 127. That is the poorest among the Indian batters. Not a small sample size. This is over 45 dismissals. Watch any of these innings. In most, you will see that when there are five fielders on the boundary, i.e., you cannot loft without impunity, he cannot clear them consistently and score over 25 runs/innings in a T20I - an average of around 25 runs and a SR of around 140 is good batting. We can lower that to 135 if you want. Anyway, Pant is the slowest among all Indian batters. The rest of the team are all above 135. Pant is the nepo selection because of his connections/friends/admirers, etc. who used his test greatness to push him into the team despite performing worse than Rahul in the IPL. Only Samson is below 135. He bats at 133 - close enough. Not as slow as Pant.

Because he has been bad and slow in the MO, he has been moved to #3 because the team has to have him for his heroics in test cricket. In test cricket, when you don't have five fielders on the boundary, he can bat very fast. That is because there are no fielders all over the boundaries to catch his mishits.
Last edited by prasen9 on Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by prasen9 »

arjun2761 wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:40 pm Pant has easily been our best player in the WC so far. He has the most runs at one of the best strike rates. If they had a way to calculate something like the fielding WAR in baseball, he may also be our best fielder with his catching and his range as a keeper.
He has indeed kept very well. And, in the WC, which is two matches, he has batted "well" compared to his peers. Our best player has been Bumrah though. Not Pant, imho. I think taking his catching and batting together, he would still be lower than Bumrah if we consider the impact (context in which the runs or wickets were made/taken). Anyway, the others have slowed down and not scored enough runs.

Here is ESPN's Impact calculations. MVP Bumrah and Hardik's impact have been more than Pant's, at least by their formula. I believe they take catches into account but I don't think they take the range into account.

The question really is whether these oldies: Rohit, Kohli, and Pant are the best three for the top order. None of them can play like SkAY when the fielding is out. I am not sure these older three are better than the younger three: Gill, Gaikwad, and Yashasvi.

Going with players who cannot hit and score fast when there are five fielders on the boundary (except when they are well set) is not a smart strategy. We will see what happens. In the past, many times, we have gone with brand names and the Rohits, Kohlis, Pants, Jadejas and they have let us down. Maybe this is their last hurrah. Let's see.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing that Pant has been the best bat in these two matches. I notch that up to a) small sample size mostly (his 2nd innings giving 4-5 chances that were all dropped/not reached is not sustainable over a career or even a tournament akin babip in baseball), b) his promotion to #3 and getting to hit without fielders outside the inner circle, and c) the pitches here being bowling assistive - Pant has superb reflexes and is not affected as much with the ball behaving unevenly off the pitch, and d) his repertoire of unorthodox shots that do not degrade as much in bowling-assistive pitches. If the West Indies serves us these sort of pitches, then Pant will be very useful. I doubt they will be this bowling-assistive. And, I doubt that Pant can give us fast innings consistently. That said, he is an unknown at #3. And, he may well succeed because he will get his eye in before the field is spread out. I wish him fantastic success because that would mean we win the cup ... or get close to it.

I am just saying Pant has been one of the slowest batters in T20I cricket (at least in modern times) and has failed time and again with the bat (not wrt scoring runs as much as eating up too many balls).
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by SaniaFan »

I agree with much but calling Pant oldie?? All of 26 years. BTW Gaikwad the youngster is 27 :p
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by Atithee »

SaniaFan wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:22 am I agree with much but calling Pant oldie?? All of 26 years. BTW Gaikwad the youngster is 27 :p
I was about to say this too. Anyway, Prasen has made up his mind about Pant no matter what happens.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by prasen9 »

Atithee wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:24 am I was about to say this too. Anyway, Prasen has made up his mind about Pant no matter what happens.
No, this is not true. I am not a reality denier. The reality is that Pant has failed badly in his career in T20Is. That is a fact. You can see 45 innings and maybe 40 of them are not of much worth - this is an estimate. Overall reality is that Pant is one of the slowest of the lot. By past record, he does not deserve to be in the team. So, he is a charity selection. Like SkAY was. This I have made up my mind.

Can I tell that Pant will fail in this WC? I cannot. I cannot say that about any player. Will he succeed? Going by past records, it is highly unlikely. Just like it was with SkAY and the WC. But, flukes happen. So, I cannot and will never say that he will not succeed in say a string of 10 matches. Besides, he has been moved to the #3 spot where he has not failed yet. He can succeed there especially if our first wicket falls early and he gets a lot of the first six overs.

I will laud Pant as I have after the second match - see above. I just react to reality.

Rather than that, I think a correct statement would be that many people have made up their mind about Pant as they had about SkAY no matter what has happened - completely ignoring that reality. That is what is unfortunate.

This is a hope and a prayer selection. In may be < 20% of the cases such hope and prayer selections come through especially in a new batting position. I am also with the rest of the nation that chosing a proven failure (albeit in a different position but in the same format) will work out this time.
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Re: T20 World Cup, W.Indies/USA 2024

Post by prasen9 »

SaniaFan wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:22 am I agree with much but calling Pant oldie?? All of 26 years. BTW Gaikwad the youngster is 27 :p
Well, SaniaFan is correct calling out my mis-statements as he has been in the past; in all of these I agree with his corrections. I perhaps meant the more experienced lot and used "old" instead. This team management values experience a lot. That is why they did not care to look at Parag or Abhishek as replacements for Jadeja and even Axar in the WC but went with the experienced lot.

I really hope the erstwhile passengers (in T20Is) like Pant, Jadeja, etc. suddenly hit a purple patch of form. That is our best bet. There is actually a silver lining in the batting failure. Nobody except Dube batted with a straight bat even when wickets were falling. So, maybe Pant and Jadeja will not bat in the 120s this WC again. Both of these guys have power and can hit. The team management has to let them loose and ask them, nay, demand that they hit and not bat slowly as they have their entire careers. Maybe they have changed. Let's hope and see.
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