England in India 2024-25 : The Pataudi Trophy

[prasen9]

Gill was already a match winner the last time we toured Australia, and he also contributed to our solitary test win in RSA. The place he had a really tough time was in ENG, and I think that his relative success in RSA and new found confidence will help him do better in ENG as well.

Sorry, a batsman is supposed to contribute somewhat consistently. We play 3 of them in the MO. If someone turns up, every 5-7 matches, that is not sustainable. He batted poorly in RSA, averaged 18.5 with no 50s and no 100s. The pitches there were awful. So, I am okay saying it is an incomplete but calling it a relative success is a bit much. He was absolutely successful in Australia and without him we don't win. The only other place he turned up was in Bangladesh. Now, in India. He failed badly in West Indies, England, and RSA.

I am okay calling his RSA stint an incomplete. He did score a 36 and a 26 in that series. Under pressure, chasing he scored 10 in that match. Rohit scored a 39 and Virat a 46, which paved the way for that victory. But, in that series, he was no relative success. He was a relative failure. Virat averaged 43, KL 37.66. Those were the relative successes. Rohit averaged 20 then. Gill was about the same at 18.5. We play with 5 batsmen. He was #4. Not really successful.

The point is that if you play with 5 batters, you need them to contribute every other inning or something. Gill has done that in Australia, Bangladesh, and India. In the rest, he dug us holes that a whole lot of others covered for. I hope he pays us back.

[prasen9]

This is part of my dissatisfaction with Rohit.

55 - Rohit Sharma's score in the chase is his highest in the fourth innings in Tests. He only had one 50-plus score in all first-class cricket in the fourth-innings before this - 52 against Australia in the 2021 Sydney Test.

Source: Cricinfo

So, in tests, he scored over 50 for the second time in I4.

We should be similarly dissatisfied by Jadeja, the batsman. 0 times in test cricket. Don't know how to query in FC cricket.

KL Rahul 2 times total in about as many dismissals (13) in I4 as Rohit (14). Pujara 4 times in 23 dismissals.Rahane 2 times in 15 dismissals.

Does that change things?

Pujara is best among his contemporaries with 1 50 in 5.75 dismissals, Rahul 1 in 6.5 dismissals, Rohit 1 in 7 dismissals, Rahane is the worst 1 in 7.5 dismissals.

However, the numbers show that Rohit is not an outlier. Were (are) you similarly dissatisfied with Rahane and (almost) with Rahul? But, really the person we who let us down (with the bat) is Jadeja. 0. Dissatisfied with him? Or we consider him a bowler first?

[prasen9]

In the last 15 years, here are the averages of our batters with at least 10 dismissals in I4.

V Kohli 2011-2024 32 27 4 1036 141 45.04 1768 58.59 2 7 2 123 3 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar 2009-2013 17 14 3 413 76 37.54 815 50.67 0 4 0 45 4 investigate this query
V Sehwag 2009-2013 13 12 2 330 62 33.00 369 89.43 0 4 1 47 4 investigate this query
RG Sharma 2014-2024 18 18 4 454 55 32.42 851 53.34 0 2 0 50 10 investigate this query
AM Rahane 2013-2023 24 19 4 471 52* 31.40 1005 46.86 0 2 2 51 4 investigate this query
CA Pujara 2010-2023 30 27 4 655 82* 28.47 1436 45.61 0 4 2 85 1 investigate this query
KL Rahul 2014-2024 16 15 2 333 149 25.61 581 57.31 1 1 2 45 2 investigate this query
R Ashwin 2011-2024 28 16 4 307 42* 25.58 663 46.30 0 0 0 37 2 investigate this query
S Dhawan 2013-2018 11 10 0 238 115 23.80 481 49.48 1 0 1 28 1 investigate this query
M Vijay 2010-2018 21 20 0 463 99 23.15 1016 45.57 0 2 1 53 5 investigate this query

Kohli is the champion in a class of his own 45. Tendulkar in the last part of his career with 37.5. Rohit has been the 4th best batter in I4. Sehwag pips him at 33, Rohit 32.4. Rahane, followed by Pujara at 31.4 and 28.47 respectively. Worst are Rahul, Dhawan, and Vijay. Considering Rohit opens, he is at about the same as Sehwag (at least the last part of Sehwag). They are a cut above the bad openers Rahul, Dhawan, and Vijay.

The truth is that batting in innings four is tough. Opening is tougher. We don't have that many innings four bats. In the limited chances he got, Rohit has done okay relative to his Indian peers. There are people like Vijay, Dhawan, and Rahul, who regularly don't turn up. And, Jadeja who you can never depend upon to score a 50. Maybe high time for him to change that?

Thanks Atithee for giving me a chance to look at Indian contemporary batting from another angle.

[prasen9]

So, Pujara's case is interesting. Generally, a lousy I4 batter but he scores 50s at a higher rate than Rohit, Rahane, Rahul, Jadeja. I think this is a small numbers random variation/anomaly. Pujara 4 vs Rohit/Rahul's 2, etc. So, can't read much in that number capturing a generally a rare occassion. This is also why I was very happy with Rohit's inning yesterday.

But, Pujara's case also means that he either got out not scoring much or, in a few (4) cases, he got stuck and could not be dislodged, which is more than that of his peers.

One can make the case that you want the 50's and 100's because they win matches, but the converse is also true in that the low scores lose matches. Then, Kumar and others have made the case that Pujara bats out a number of balls and makes batting easier for people who follow him. This is also true and I can't capture that using any metric easily. I mean I can but it will take me to write a program, get the whole data, etc.

[prasen9]

Did anyone else seem to notice that Jurel has a weird ritual before every ball? He touches the ground with his hand, looks up and then takes stance. All this extra bending bad for his back?

[Atithee]

Since when did we expect Jadeja to be a top order batsman? How did he even enter this discussion? If anything he took the responsibility to bat higher to help the team. If he isn’t helping, he’ll gladly shift down. Maybe that’s where he belongs. Except Kohli’s coach, no one advocated for Jadeja to bat higher up. Cherry picking was not good for others, it’s not good for him. What he has done for India in the last five years is phenomenal. And, yes, he’s a bowler and a great fielder too. He keeps our bowling rate in check too by being very efficient. His contributions are priceless.

[prasen9]

Since when did we expect Jadeja to be a top order batsman? How did he even enter this discussion? If anything he took the responsibility to bat higher to help the team. If he isn’t helping, he’ll gladly shift down. Maybe that’s where he belongs. Except Kohli’s coach, no one advocated for Jadeja to bat higher up. Cherry picking was not good for others, it’s not good for him. What he has done for India in the last five years is phenomenal. And, yes, he’s a bowler and a great fielder too. He keeps our bowling rate in check too by being very efficient. His contributions are priceless.

We don't expect anyone to be a top order batsman. Well, by that logic, Rohit will also gladly shift down. Opening is harder. We do not need people who will gladly cut and run in the face of a challenge but people who can bat under pressure and people who are fighters. He enters the discussion because the reality is that people batting down the order up to the #11 are expected to contribute with the bat. We could use the same argument for Pant and now Jurel. But, they have batted and scored when chasing and helped us win games. If they can, so can and should Jadeja once in a while. If you claim to be an allrounder, and I believe Jadeja is the best test allrounder we have ever had, you need to hold up your own with bat and ball. Our keepers came in with the bat to help us win matches. Why should we not demand the same from our allrounders? I cannot remember Jadeja having done anything with the bat in the second innings of a test. Our allrounders need to do bat a bit too. Jadeja has not done that. That is a fact.

I do think that he is an allrounder. He is playing as an allrounder in the test team and not as a pure bowler. And he has it in him to win us games by doing well in I4 of a test match but it is either his mental makeup of being too defensive or not being able to handle pressure, he has not helped us much in I4. He averages a very poor 14.71 with the bat in the last innings of a match and a poor 18.71 in the second innings. Rohit is not bad compared to his peers. Jadeja is, compared to other allrounders. Nearest comparison, Ashwin 25.58 in I4. Ashwin is a gutsy player in I4. Jadeja is just mentally weak midget in the second inning of a match. I wish it was not so. For all his talent, if he can show up when we are chasing in the last innings of a match, then we would perhaps win more matches.

Of all the players who got out yesterday, the worst shot was played by Jadeja to a full toss. Rohit got beaten by a good ball. His tactic was absolutely correct. To use his feet. Gill also used his feet and did not get beaten. Rohit got out even though he tried his best. He gave us 50+. That happens. For all the criticism heaped on Rohit, the point was that Rohit has not done that badly in comparison to his peers. He turns up and fights. And, actually has been the best opener post-Sehwag wrt I4 batting. Jadeja on the other hand pales in comparison to Ashwin with the bat in I4 and his peers. Every player has his weaknesses I suppose. And, I am fine with that. It is the selective calling out of people while letting the worst offenders go that bothers me.

He has been fantastic with the bat in the first innings of a match. He is the best left-arm spinner we ever had. He is arguably the best fielder we have had, at least in a while. He is just a mental midget when conditions get tougher in the second innings especially while chasing. Has never scored even a 35. Ashwin - I remember the 39* in Australia, the heroic rearguard with Vihari, the 42* in Bangladesh in a tense win, I think he scored a 37 in RSA and a 32 in India. Maybe I am missing a few more, maybe there is no more for Ashwin either. But, these are much better returns and much better fight shown by a batsman who is less equipped and less talented than Jadeja. Hope in the last part of his career, he removes this blemish by finally turning up with the bat in the second innings of a test match. He certainly has the skills to do it. I think it is mental weakness.

Critiquing the batting of an allrounder is fair game.

[prasen9]

I think it may not be a bad idea to move him down the order in the second innings of a match. Let him come after Ashwin and bat with the tail, etc. He may do better than the 15-18s he is giving us in the second innings.

So, I'd rather have Rohit, Yashasvi, 3 batters, Jurel, Ashwin, Jadeja ... in the second innings even when we are not chasing. In the first innings, he should be send up maybe at #5 or 6. Horses for courses.

[Kumar]

Will india go with three seamers at Dharmashala or revert to the same bowling combination with Bumrah returning for Akash Deep. Patidar is most likely gone with either Rahul or Padaikkal replacing him.


Robinson may have tweaked his back while batting in firat inning and his fitness appears to br question mark. So likely Mark Wood comes back for him and England otherwise retains same squad.

[prasen9]

England may try Atkinson. We could possibly go with Akash Deep and Bumrah. And, yes, Patidar may be replaced. England could also rest Anderson to get Wood in but I think they will want to keep Anderson for his milestone.

Cook also says the same. Demote Jadeja in the order. I support that with a twist. I would bring him up the order in the first innings and put him behind Ashwin in the second innings. He has a long history of doing nothing in the second innings with the bat. We should recognize that and do the needful to maximize our runs. One more question. Does Jadeja do better in the second inning at home? The answer is no. His second inning average is 17.84 in the second innings at home, worse than his overall average. These are over a long career. Why not just move him down the order in the second inning? Or do we really want all the oldies our and test our new guard anyway? I don't mind continuing with him even though he is in the older generation but we should bat him below Ashwin in the second innings (not only in I4 but also in I3).

Sundar has been released for the last test and Bumrah comes back.

[Kumar]

Question is do they go with three seamers and drop one spinner? Very unlikely. Wood is probably still the favorite to be picked ahead of Atkinson, unless they go with three seamers

As to India, pecking order is clear and Siraj will play over Akash Deep. Not sure how Akash bowls with older ball. When i was young, i was always jealous of inswing bowlers. I thought they were deadly.. now value the outswingwr more. Akash as Raj pointed needs to decelop hos outswinger.

I would play Jadeja up the order if u want to hold up one end and other end is right hander. Even though he does not score runs he is almost Pujarasque in defending.

[prasen9]

I would play Jadeja up the order if u want to hold up one end and other end is right hander. Even though he does not score runs he is almost Pujarasque in defending.

Kumar, I thought you are a Pujara fan. Why are you insulting Pujara with this comparison?

Jadeja lasts for 31 balls on average in I4.

Ashwin lasts for 55 balls on average in I4.

I did not check I3 but in I4, it is clear. Jadeja dooms our chases with the bat. Other people then come in and clean up his mess.

There is no logical reason except the stupidity and lack of awareness on the part of the team management to send Jadeja up the order in the second innings of a match. He should not come any higher up than Ashwin. Maybe if there is a serious rough by the right handers side and we really want a left-hander. But, it has to be a very exceptional pitch. On most other pitches, Ashwin should come before Jadeja as should the keeper and all our batters. His performance in I4 is absolutely horrendous.

This is not just numbers. I think Gill and Jadeja scored like 18 runs in 10 overs or so and of that Gill scored much more. If I recall correctly. They had almost given the English bowlers hope that these guys cannot score the runs. They were scoring 1 run per over and it would take 70 overs(!) which nobody would last.

Jurel turned the tide. He went forward or back and with small movements of the feet created angles to place the ball against the turn in the empty spaces without taking any risk. No 4s, no 6s. Jurel showed a masterclass in how to get the runs without taking risks. Gill adjusted very soon and was returning the strike back too. That logjam was cleared up and we made progress.

On the other hand, Gill is the anti-Jadeja. He is stoic in I4. Fantastic signs. We need a successor to Laxman (and Kohli). I think he has scored 3 50's in half the chances as the Rohit-Pujara-Rahul-Rahane gang. So, we have hope on that. May Gill get stronger and stronger. And, really hope this is not small sample size.

[prasen9]

So for the last test, with the release of Washy, etc. the young/old balance of the squad:

Old: Ashwin (37), Rohit (36), Jadeja (35), Rahul (31), Patidar, Bharat (30)
Young: Yashasvi (22), Jurel, Padikkal (23), Gill (24), Sarfaraz (26), Akash Deep (27)

A lot of young batters emerged. Which is good. Patidar, Bharat - the inexperienced oldies are perhaps done. The other four oldies, I am apathetic. I don't mind replacing them. I don't mind them staying either as long as we support the young core, which we are doing.

[Kumar]

Well Jadeja is the closest comp to Pujara in this team. Jadeja is not as good defensively, but he prizes his wicket and very rarely throws away. Since covid, He has just scored at SR of 50 and higher 7 times (facing at least 10 balls) in around 32 innings while Pujara has done it 10 times in 48 innings. Kohli has done 19 times in 49 innings in that same duration


Ashwin’s batting has fallen off the cliff the last 5 years. He averages just 21 while before 2019 he averaged 29. I think as Ashwin’s place came under question, he appears to have lost his batting touch.

[prasen9]

Jadeja does all that in the first innings. He should bat high up in the first innings. In the second inning, he is a sitting duck and should bat lower.

It don't think it is skills in the second inning that is troubling him. I believe it is mental. Ashwin is mentally much stronger in I4 and even though his skills may be lower he has performed better in the second innings of tests.

I will check the last 5 years but Jadeja has done diddly squat in the second innings of a test. I would rather take someone with the mental fortitude and has done something in the past even if their skills are waning to someone who has never done it.

I don't really care how stylistically they look like Pujara or not. A low SR in the MO is actually a deterrent on a fourth innings pitch. You can accept slow batting from the openers or the #3. But, a very slow middle order bat means you will get out because a fourth innings pitch has vagaries in it especially in India. So, you need to balance scoring runs and an ultra-defensive mindset is a death knell.

In short, playing like Pujara for 10 balls and getting out, for arguments' sake is useless. Batting to blunt the other party is useful when the game is to take the shine off the ball. That too it is of limited value. I would rather have a Sehwag than a Pujara anytime. At the end, it is the runs that win you games. All the rest may have some effect but is overrated.

Even with taking the shine off the ball, Ashwin is much better suited playing 55 balls than Jadeja who plays 30 balls and gets out with very few runs. Push him down to #8 if you want to optimize your wins.