India's Dream Cricket Test Team

As the other sports forums seem to have taken old to some respect, well here is a cricket forum. NOTE: This forum will be heavily moderated and can be revoked at any time is discussions go out of hand.

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Post by Red_Indian »

PKBasu wrote:He readily admits now that Jadeja doesn't deserve to be in any all-time best team, but is there merely because he is his favourite. Fine. Nobody has disputed his right to have his own favourites.
Jesus!! For the 697th time, I did not name an "all-time best team" at all, so there is no quesion of Jadeja being or not being there. Do you even read other people's posts completely?
PKBasu wrote:I will happily take you on in a single-wicket competition man to man anywhere in the world.
Since when did this discussion become a match of our cricketing abilities. You surely have a way of making childish arguements.
PKBasu wrote:I used to open the batting in Limited-over matches when I was 15-26 years old, and now that I'm (late) thirty-something, prefer to play at no. 6. It is much easier to do the latter. You don't face the new ball when it is swinging and hard (and liable to fly for a catch in the slips). The best bowlers from the opposition are being rested, and you bat in the middle overs when the trundlers are bowling.
That is surely the case in the club cricket that you play, but defn. not the same in international cricket. I do not want to carry on arguing on this, but the fact remains that batting in the middle overs is far tougher compared to opening (in ODIs). And when you get a chance to hear someone who's played cricket at the highest level on this topic, you'll find that they agree with me.
PKBasu wrote:As for your statistical table: thank you for helping me illustrate my point. I made the simple assertion that Ganguly, Yuvraj, Dravid had better strike rates than Jadeja in ODIs (mea culpa on Dravid; his strike-rate was marginally worse than Jadeja's, albeit with a better average; he is of course additionally burdened with keeping wickets)
You're right, while Dravid's strike rate is only "marginally" worse than Jadeja's, Bevan, Yuvraj and Ganguly have strike rate almost double that of Jadeja :roll:
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Post by david »

Guess, its time for a BREAK!
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Post by Dhruv »

I second that opinion. :)
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Post by Red_Indian »

:mrgreen:
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Post by PKBasu »

I'm just as fed up of this discussion. But Red_Indian asserts "Coming to the one dayers, I believe he was the best late middle order India ever had - and probably can ever hope to have".
Thankfully, he is hopelessly wrong on this.
If opening was as easy in ODIs as this fellow thinks, the only reason his hero Jadeja failed to hold onto this "easy" position was because he only averaged 33.75 as an opener (versus nearly 50 for Sachin).

But Red_Indian's first post in this thread said:
"This is my FAVOURITE India Test XI of all times....
1. K Srikkanth (I know it's tests!!!)
2. A Jadeja ..." (bold on Test added, the rest is a direct quote).
Everybody is entitled to their own favourites. But in subsequent posts, Red_Indian makes myriad assertions about Jadeja's abilities (to justify his inclusion). To select Jadeja as a test opener is a complete travesty, especially when you have a galaxy of greats to choose from: Gavaskar (the greatest test opener of all time from any country), Sehwag, Sidhu, Chauhan, Das, Ramesh, Dasgupta (test century as opener in a test India won), Chopra -- all, from recent times, who have better test records than Jadeja. And, then there are openers from other eras -- Vinoo Mankad, Vijay Merchant, Pankaj Roy, Mushtaq Ali, Farokh Engineer, Nari Contractor, Budhi Kunderan -- all of whom are being ignored to accommodate a player (Jadeja) who rarely opened in tests, and proved a complete misfit as a test player anywhere in the batting line-up -- taking no test wickets and ending with a test average of 26.
To then include Jadeja in an all-time world test team is the height of absurdity. I was forced to comment on it simply because it demonstrates an inability or unwillingness on the part of the writer to comprehend the difference between a test player and an ODI specialist. Jadeja and Bevan had ample opportunities to become test players, but failed to meet the requisite standards. To try and retrospectively thrust this failed test player into an all-time team -- even of personal favourites -- in a public forum invites comment.
I've emphasised in several posts that Jadeja would be a contender in an all-time Indian ODI team. But IMO he would not be an automatic choice. However hard Red_Indian tries to finesse it, he can't get away from the fact that Jadeja's strike rate was worse than Yuvraj, Kaif, Ganguly (yes, 75 is considerably better than 69). He was a slow starter just like Bevan, but the latter had a much better average and a better strike rate. (Red_Indian's way of arguing is to inflate and conflate what I say, and then tear down that inflated/conflated version of what I said...). The basic point that Jadeja cannot be in any all-time test team (because he never fully earned a test place even in teams of his own era) remains something that the majority of cricket fans will have little difficulty acknowledging. And to then sneak him into an all-time world test team is, well, stretching the bounds of credulity.
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Post by Red_Indian »

PKBasu wrote:But Red_Indian's first post in this thread said:
"This is my FAVOURITE India Test XI of all times....
1. K Srikkanth (I know it's tests!!!)
2. A Jadeja ..." (bold on Test added, the rest is a direct quote).
"...This is my FAVOURITE India Test XI of all times...."

Is he the only guy out here who does NOT understand the meaning of the word favourite? Who does not understand that I did NOT pick the team on merit, but named my favourite (see defn. below) 11 players, AND CLEARLY MENTIONED THE SAME ON THE ORIGINAL POST.

fa·vor·ite
1. One that enjoys special favor or regard.
2. One that is trusted, indulged, or preferred above all others, especially by a superior: a favorite of the monarch.
3. A person or thing regarded with peculiar favor; one treated with partiality; one preferred above others; especially, one unduly loved, trusted, and enriched with favors by a person of high rank or authority.

:damn:
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Post by PKBasu »

Child, child. Let me repeat for the umpteenth time, Red_Indian, that nobody begrudges you the right to have your own favourites.
But it was your attempt to dress up and defend your choice of favourite test players of all time that invited comment (and deserved ridicule on one count, having to do with the inclusion of Jadeja). Now that you admit that you did not choose your team on merit, it is worth reiterating that Jadeja did not prove himself worthy of being a test player at all, let alone an all-time great test player among Indian and world cricketers.
Apart from a bookie, I'm not sure how Jadeja could be among anybody's all-time favourite test players. No centuries, batting average of 26, no wickets and just five catches in 15 matches...how did he possibly become your all-time favourite opening batsman? And in the same initial post, you proceeded to include him in an all-time favourite world test XI too. Incomprehensible. (Or, to use the sort of ridiculous abuse you like to hurl: a demonstration of a complete lack of knowledge about cricket).
Last edited by PKBasu on Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Indian »

Maybe you could use some time reading other people's posts, rather than just harping your own point. That might help you get a better comprehension of things, Grandpa.

The original post: UNEDITED apart from bold, to help you focus on things.
Red_Indian wrote:Here's my shot at it.

Note: This is my FAVOURITE India Test XI of all times. Not the best XI players IMO.

1. K Srikkanth (I know it's tests!!!)
2. A Jadeja
3. R. Dravid
4. GR Vishwanath (Never seen him play, but love whatever I have heard/ read about him)
5. M Azharuddin (A treat to watch when in full flow)
6. Kapil Dev (the greatest cricketer ever - enough said!)
7. Kiran More (the best Indian keeper I have seen)
8. A. Agarkar
9. A. Kumble
10. I. Pathan (!!!!)
11. E Prasanna (same as Vishy)
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Post by Dhruv »

david wrote:Guess, its time for a BREAK!
Do you really want me to step in here guys. I think we can stop this childish argument right here or I'll have to force a timeout between you two which I don't want to do.
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Post by Sandeep »

What was I doing when this discussion was going on: -

My Indian dream team: -

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar (c)
Vengsarkar
Kirmani
Kapil Dev
Anil Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
Bishan singh Bedi
Irfan Pathan


My world IX

Gavaskar
WR Hammond
Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Vivian Richards
Brian Lara
Gary Sobers
Gilchrist
Muralitharan
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
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Post by SaniaFan »

Nothingnew your India XI seems bowler heavy and World XI seems batsman heavy.
And Kiri before Kapil??
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Post by Sandeep »

Yes, Kapil should be there to guide tailenders. He is one of those cricketers who has rare ability to wage battle with tailenders and he is a kind of batsman who gains motivation from adverse conditions.

And coming to bowler heavy Indian team, yes it is. I am one of those believers who think that if we have 3 damn good spinners then we can defend any total on a spinning track. Plus it is definitely an asset to have spinners with variety. Captain will have terrific options. I was a bit stuck at whom to select between Pathan, Balaji and srinath. But I finally went with Pathan because he offers more variety being a left hand bowler and more over he is the only bowler in India who has an ability to reverse swing the ball.

Coming to world IX, I have 4 bowlers Akram, Hadlee, Muralitharan and sobers. Sobers is a great allrounder, probably the best. And I haven't choosen another bowler as Sobers can bowl both spin and Medium pace. Moreover we can simply trust Lara and Richards to turn match at any moment. Even when world IX is chasing we can simply leave the task to richards and lara and they will win match for us. That is why I thought a choice of batsman clearly outweighs an extra bowler.

The samething cannot be said with India IX.
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Post by PKBasu »

We should have expected it from you, but Sachin as captain of an all-time Indian XI?? He had the worst record as captain among those in your team. Based on record as captain, at least five members of your team would be better captains than Sachin (Gavaskar, Kapil, Bedi, Vengsarkar and even Dravid).
As for the world XI, I would agree that your team is very batsman-heavy. Sobers was a batting all-rounder (although the best batting all-rounder of all time); he could bowl both medium-pace and spin, but I would have him as an ideal fifth bowler, not as the fourth bowler in an all-time World XI. Perhaps Lillee or Warne deserves a look-in?
Also, Walter Hammond wasn't an opening batsman, although he certainly deserves a place in the middle-order. The great opening batsmen of his time were Jack Hobbs (who used to open with Sutcliffe) and Len Hutton. The latter began to go lower in the order towards the end of his career, but all his great innings (including the 364 in a total of 903/7d against Australia) were made as an opener.
Once you accommodate Hammond in the middle-order and pick another bowler, I guess you're left with a choice of picking one from among Lara, Richards and Sachin. On pure match-winning ability, I'd pick either Lara or Richards, although Sachin would win out on the basis of his superior average.
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Post by Sandeep »

Well, Sachin as captain defniitely would have surprised or must have made you think I did that because I am sachin fan. BUt no. I sincierly believe that sachin has one of the best cricketing minds ever. Given a good team he can do wonders. He is defintely not a good leader, I mean motivating and leading a team. BUt if we can give a good team he definitely knows how to use them effectively.

And coming to world IX, as I said I heavily relied on batsman to do the Job. Coming to Walter Hammond he played as a one down batsman. And he can bowl too. He can bowl right arm medium fast. He has 83 test wickets to his name. And since he played one down, that means he will definitely be having skills to play new ball. Ideally Sutcliff should have been straight choice, but as I said my team is batsman heavy, hence I need players who can bowl too. Though my team looks like has only 3 specialist bowlers, I have hammond who can bowl. Sachin and Richards who can bowl a bit(Probably crucial breakthroughs) and Sobers who I can can be used as genuine bowler. Apart from them I have two devastating bowlers in the form of muralitharan and Hadlee who can assure atleast 2 wickets in every innings.
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Post by gbelday »

hey, no Kapil in your World XI? and, I would pick Laxman or Azhar ahead of Vengsarkar :)
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