India's Dream Cricket Test Team

As the other sports forums seem to have taken old to some respect, well here is a cricket forum. NOTE: This forum will be heavily moderated and can be revoked at any time is discussions go out of hand.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

I would be fine having a different home team and a different away team. So what if they have a year's gap. Let them play domestics. It will do our domestic tournaments some good if we have our home dadas play at home instead of being in the national team abroad. And, the home zeros like Amarnath and Rahane would actually get more practice at our domestics and may learn to play spin better later on in their lives. Win-win. We do that to our bowlers all the time. Jadeja plays at home and rarely abroad. We should do that to our batsmen too. I would play Pujara and Dhawan at home and maybe not Rahane (and vice-versa, assuming Rahane gets back his form!).
User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 36869
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by PKBasu »

Of Jimmy Amarnath's 37 tests abroad, 11 were in the peak season of his career -- 1982/83 (Pakistan and West Indies) -- when he rose to absolutely astonishing heights. And 5 were against Australia in 1977/78 (another comeback series for him) against a weakened attack (containing Thomson, but no Lillee and Pascoe).
Jimmy used to be dropped -- now that we can see it -- mainly because of his poor home record. Perhaps he was a better player of pace than spin (which is what I would have said about Rahane before this series; again, Jimmy was ordinary in England, so perhaps he was good against pace and bounce, not so much against swing; Dravid and Ganguly were better players of swing than Laxman, who did better against bounce).
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Ganguly could even play as an allrounder in England. His dibbly dobblies were lethal when there was swing.

I know I have bloviated a lot in this thread lately, but, here is a point where I would want people to opine on because I have not had the time (or the acumen) to think deeply on this. Atithi asked for the standard deviation of MA asking whether he was consistent. I think that consistency is perhaps not a good measure especially in a below-par team. If you are a below-par team and you are very consistent, you will be scoring 300-325 every innings. It may be difficult to win matches.

For example, instead of getting a 50 so often, I would rather take a 100 and a 0. If I am a losing team anyway, a wildly fluctuating player can be devastating on a day and become a match-winner and then be awol for several matches. But the matches they overperform, we will win. If the batsmen play and score say, 38, 38, 45, 50, 42, (reasonable averages for a reasonable batting order), then you are at 207/5 and your tail's average is perhaps 75-100 more runs. You will not be in a winning position. So, we need some variation to become match-winners.

That is why, I remember Agarkar's sudden heroics in Australia even though throughout his life he was crap. But at least Agarkar can say he won us a match in Australia. Which maybe some other players who were better bowlers than him overall cannot.

So, what should be a good measure to objectively measure the utility of a bowler or a batsman with respect to helping his or her team win, and how do we do it? Maybe look at significantly above average performances in winning matches? But that punishes people like Srinath, say, who were provided no bowling support or batting support abroad :-( Comments? Suggestions?
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

At this point, the best averages for Indian bowlers *ever* reads as follows:

Bumrah, Bhuvi, Jadeja, Ashwin, Shami

(using qual 2000 balls as used by CI)

consecutive. I doubt this has ever happened before this bunch. And, it has been like this for a while now. With Jadeja sprucing up on the batting front, I may be tempted to play Jadeja, Ashwin, [Kirmani], Bhuvi, Shami, Bumrah in that order. Wow! If Dhoni is chosen, that makes even less of a case for Kapil. I never thought that Kapil's position would be iff in an all-time test X1. I could go with Kapil replacing Shami though. Or Bhuvi if the match is in India.

What a bowling attack. This leaves out Hardik and Umesh who average around 31 and Ishant averaging around 33. Kuldeep will possibly join this if he keeps up his form, which is not guaranteed I suppose.

As I have said before the RSA series, except maybe against Australia which has Cummins, Pattinson, Starc, Hazlewood, etc. we should play on grass even at home. The English attack is also good and we may get them with spin. No reason not to leave grass for the rest.
Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 5766
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Sin Hombre »

I think there are very few non-emotional reasons to deny that this team is the best ever in Asian conditions.

No team has ever been as dominant.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Absolutely.

If we want abroad performance, then putting a qual of 10 wickets gets us: Bumrah, Kuldeep, Irfan, Praveen, Bhuvi.

50 wickets gets us: Bumrah, Pathan, Gupte, Shami, Ashwin.

Outside Asia (20 wickets): Bumrah, Pathan, Praveen Bhuvi, Lala A., Kapil, Nadkarni, Zaheer, Chandra, Gupte, Shivlal Yadav.

Interesting to see Lala and Nadkarni. So, Nadkarni is the best Indian spinner ever outside Asia! Smaller number of tests maybe? Shivlal Yadav!
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Team of the decade (for me): Dhawan, Sehwag, Pujara, Tendulkar, Kohli, Dhoni. If we play 6 bats, then Laxman.

Bowlers: Ashwin, Jadeja, Ishant, Shami, Umesh

If we need a 3rd spinner, Mishra.

Replace Umesh by Bumrah if you want quality over quantity (Bumrah played only 12 tests).
Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 5766
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Sin Hombre »

Sehwag? Dhawan?

Murali Vijay is by some distance the best Indian opener of the 2010s. Scored a lot of tough runs in SA and Aus. Sehwag was a joke away before his retirement, and Dhawan has always been that. Vijay admittedly was bad in his last 2 seasons.

Vijay, Sehwag, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Pant, Ashwin, Jadeja, Ishant, Shami, Bumrah.

I find it very hard to include the guys who were involved in India's worst run in the last 2 decades (home defeat to England, and 8 losses in a row away to Eng and Aus).
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Well, I went by the numbers. Vijay is overhyped and overrated. He rarely performed anything substantial. His career average speaks for itself. Note that I was also not picking a separate overseas team. So, Dhawan's India performances where he dominated several bowling attacks speaks for itself. Vijay should consider himself lucky to have been given such a long run despite his lack of performance. People like S. Ramesh, S.S. Das, etc. were not as lucky as Vijay was. Not only the last two years, I remember Vijay being horrible in West Indies or so even before unless my memory is fudging things. Sehwag and Dhawan scored runs and that is what matters. Vijay was a paper tiger.

South Africa? :-) Vijay was a joke in RSA. He was more of a joke in New Zealand. Rubbish in WI. Substandard in England. The only place he scored is in Australia, the most batting pitches in the world at least in the last part of the decade. Sehwag and Dhawan may not have been much better but they scored more than Vijay.

Sehwag, Dhawan simply because there was no one better.

Pant is not even a keeper. I was choosing for tests. Dhoni's stumpings and general solidity is way better than Pant's rank bad technique and dropping a bunch. Pant has been much better than Dhoni with the bat.

I am very reluctant to choose people such as Pant or Bumrah because they played very few tests in the decade.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

If we are choosing an away XI, then Rahane I can understand. But Vijay? I checked their abroad numbers in the decade. He averages 30.8 abroad. Sehwag 34. Dhawan 39. Vijay was utter crap. I am glad we have moved on.

Abroad, it has been Tendulkar, Rahane, Kohli, and Dravid in the decade with the bat.

But again, you could make a case for Pujara, Kohli, Rahane because Tendulkar played only a small part of the decade. The only way to bring Vijay in is to oust Sehwag because of the same reason. He did not play for most of the decade. Not because Vijay has been any good. He has been awful abroad.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

We perhaps have the finest bowling lineup and depth we have ever had. Our top five bowlers now: Bumrah, Jadeja, Ashwin, Bhuvi, Shami would be all-time greats and would walk into my team. Bumrah and Bhuvi have a ways to go with respect to longevity and have played 16 and 21 tests respectively. Even our #1 backup bowler Umesh has been bowling at Srinath levels. Maybe Kapil's better batting would bring him in instead of Bhuvi. And, again Irfan's bat and left-handedness may bring him into the picture instead of Shami. But that is me searching for reasons to keep these folks out.

That, or international batsmen have become worse.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Now that Saha's career is over, does he get into the top-3 teams? Possibly not. I think the three that I'd choose are Pant, Dhoni, and Kirmani. Of these, Pant is the best batsman followed by Dhoni.

But, the next rung would be More, Mongia, and Saha, who have played between 40 and 50 tests. Oh, and of course, Engineer. Among them, Engineer was the best bat, followed closely by Saha. More and Mongia in that order were a cut below with the bat. I have not seen Engineer keep. Maybe PKB or someone else can shed some light on how good or bad he was?
Rajkumar Sharma
Member
Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:10 am
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Rajkumar Sharma »

prasen9 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:34 pm Now that Saha's career is over, does he get into the top-3 teams? Possibly not. I think the three that I'd choose are Pant, Dhoni, and Kirmani. Of these, Pant is the best batsman followed by Dhoni.

But, the next rung would be More, Mongia, and Saha, who have played between 40 and 50 tests. Oh, and of course, Engineer. Among them, Engineer was the best bat, followed closely by Saha. More and Mongia in that order were a cut below with the bat. I have not seen Engineer keep. Maybe PKB or someone else can shed some light on how good or bad he was?
To feed the career of Gabba King Pant, selectors destroyed the careers of Sheldon Jakson, Naman Ojha and now they will destroy KS Bharat, I Kisan, Sanju Samson. Some time cricket is so much cruel. Have seen Dhoni getting criticized so much in the media but never seen so much against Pant. His once in a blue moon innings are making him favourite
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

No Indian wicket-keeper has scored centuries in England, Australia, and South Africa. Pant is the best bat ever to play for us in tests among our wicket-keepers based on SENA performance. He should not be automatic for ODIs and T20Is though.
SaniaFan
Member
Member
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:20 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by SaniaFan »

He played well today though. In terms of shot selection as well as pacing his inning. This would be a good template for him. I fact he was looking much better than Iyer.
Post Reply