India's Dream Cricket Test Team

As the other sports forums seem to have taken old to some respect, well here is a cricket forum. NOTE: This forum will be heavily moderated and can be revoked at any time is discussions go out of hand.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 36869
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by PKBasu »

Here's something you and I agree on, Atithee!
But I would say this is only true about test batting: Sunil Gavaskar is the greatest test batsman we have produced. Virat Kohli is getting very close, perhaps on par with Sunny now (but I would await the end of this series to be sure), ahead of the Fab Four. In tests, I would say the next best are SRT, Dravid, Sehwag. VVS in Australia and India, and when needing to win a test. Azhar, Vengsarkar, Merchant next.

In ODIs, Virat Kohli is far and away the greatest batsman we have produced, and among the greatest ODI batsmen of all time -- alongside Viv Richards, SRT and Ricky Ponting. Among Indian ODI batsmen, Sourav Ganguly would be next after the great duo of Virat and SRT.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

I don't disagree per se because Virat is an incomplete in my books and the "recency bias" affects us all. But, the way he managed the tail in I1 was simply sublime. I have not seen anyone do it better. That is because Virat is the best batsman in the world to take singles whenever he wants. If there is one ball and a single needed, in a test with less bowling restrictions, I would want Virat to be the batsman.

I am projecting that Virat will possibly be the best batsman we have produced because of his sheer willpower and refusal to die. Of course, technically, SMG is the best. Amarnath had his highs in really poor conditions where even SMG was iffy. But, VK may well have it to be better than them all. We'll see.
Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 5766
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Sin Hombre »

Agree with prasen than Amarnath was better than SMG in tougher conditions.

Also I find it impossible to rank SMG above SRT. The latter had an excellent record in every condition and against a bunch of ATG bowlers (Akram, Warne, Murali).

I think it is SRT = Virat (latter needs a stellar ODI WC to go clear) >>> SMG = Dravid.
User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 36869
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by PKBasu »

Jimmy Amarnath had one great season (1982-83 in Pakistan, where SMG too did well, and West Indies, where SMG failed except one test and one ODI innings but Amarnath shone). It was a heroic season, and he topped it with a superb 1983 World Cup. But then he just collapsed in the home series.

Jimmy Amarnath was a terrific cricketer with a great heart. But I don't think he stands comparison with Sunil Gavaskar's career record against all comers. Jimmy never played a great innings on a green-top like SMG's 101 at Old Trafford in 1974, or anything in England remotely like SMG's 221 at the Oval (1979).
User avatar
Atithee
Member
Member
Posts: 5847
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:14 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Atithee »

To me, anything Jimmy did was a bonus. Gavaskar, you could count on. Jimmy, not. It’s a blasphemy for me to even mention them in the same breath. If anything, I’d rate Viswanath higher than Jimmy. Sadly, Viswanath never reached the lofty heights he surely was capable of achieving.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Amarnath was the opposite of Pujara. He could not play in India. But, he averages 51.86 abroad over 37 tests. One of the best records ever for any Indian batsman abroad.

Vishwanath was over-rated because of his style. I will take substance over style any day. He averaged a very mediocre 36.43 abroad over 43 tests. Yes, you could rely on him abroad. But you relied on him to be consistently mediocre to bad. Of course, the 36 looks much better than the 25-ers that we have today (Rahane and Kohli excepted). But Vishy was "meh" abroad.

I agree that it is blasphemy to mention Amarnath and Vishwanath on the same breadth. I will take a abroad-player over a home-track bully any day because we had so few of the former. The other home bully was the Colonel. Vishy was, at least, somewhat better than him abroad but on the other hand, did not reach his heights at home.

We have nobody of the calibre of Amarnath abroad today :-( Kohli has the promise to reach his heights abroad.

While playing abroad, we could rely on two batsmen, Gavaskar and Amarnath. Vishy would turn up some days and be abysmal others.

In baseball terms, a Amarnath/Vengsarkar platoon would work pretty well. Replace Vengsarkar with Vishy for the earlier years. Or if we are going across eras, an Amarnath/Pujara platoon would work fantastically well especially at #3.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

Our away first-team batsmen (by away avg.) would be:

Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Amarnath.

I do not know how good ML Apte or Vijay Merchant were vis-a-vis these folks. They have good away records. Maybe PKB can shed some light.

Second team (by away avg.) would be:

Gambhir, Dhawan, Rahane, Kohli, Sandip Patil.

It is very difficult to slice and dice the away records because West Indies was really bad for our players during their hey days but is easy now. As was Pakistan always. So, maybe we can try SANE+Pak+WI but it will help current players.

Both teams would be the same except Dhawan would be replaced by Ravi Shastri.

3rd team in those selected countries would be:

Prabhakar, Chetan Chauhan, Laxman, Ganguly, Umrigar.

3rd team in all away countries would be:

Prabhakar, S. Ramesh, Laxman, Ganguly, Umrigar.

Vishwanath cannot make it to any of these teams at least by production. If we just like watching late cuts and not care about the bottom-line, by all means choose Vishy.

Even if we make a 4th away team, the MO would be Sanjay Manjrekar, Sardesai, MAK Pataudi.

No Vishy. No Azhar. No Vengsarkar. No Pujara.
User avatar
Atithee
Member
Member
Posts: 5847
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:14 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Atithee »

What is Amarnath’s SD in the away average and are there many not outs included in it? I agree that if his average that you quoted is fairly consistent, I’d rate him high but if his average at home is bad, then that needs to be taken into account as well. We can’t have a domestic team and a touring team with specialist batsmen. That way touring team specialists may go over a year without any test match experience. Surely, you’re not advocating for that.
Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 5766
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Sin Hombre »

Why not?

Pujara and Rahul are our best batsmen on a rank turner but both are dismal against the moving ball (though Rahul in theory could still improve).
Prashant
Member
Member
Posts: 2813
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:48 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Houston TX

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Prashant »

We are back in the "peak vs longevity" impasse that affects every such debate. You have to start by defining if you are picking this dream team based on peak performance in a season / year or based on entire careers. Both Vengsarkar & Amarnath had very high peaks - Vengsarkar was probably the best bat in the world for about one year & the best in India for about 3. But the longevity wasn't there. Between 1986 & 1988, Vengsarkar averaged 90+ over 20 tests with 8 centuries. How many other Indian bats can claim a 3 year stretch like that?

But apart from all this, I can't fathom any all time 11 picking Prabhakar (purely based on batting) or Sandip Patil over Vengsarkar or Azhar. Vengsarkar averaged 42+ over 185 innings & Azhar 45+ over 147 innings. Patil averaged <36 over 47 innings. That's a large enough different that it should trump the home / away splits. Prabhakar was an all rounder who was shoe-horned into opening because we didn't seem to have a better option.
User avatar
Atithee
Member
Member
Posts: 5847
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:14 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by Atithee »

Prashant, I agree. This has morphed into a completely different discussion. Patil and Prabhakar being called a dream player in any team pretty much tells it all.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

The numbers do not lie. Your perception perhaps does. If they are the best or 3rd best or 6th best or whatever by numbers, then it just shows how poor our other heroes were away from home.

Sandip Patil had a big heart. He was a crucial member whose don't-care attitude won us the World Cup. I believe he was instrumental in the semis. We had many mental midgets at that time.

It reflects upon Vishy and Azhar and Vengsarkar that they could not bat abroad. If you want to look at lifetime averages just look at Pujara and see how bad he is overseas in the SANE countries.

Here are Amarnath's series averages:


Series averages
Series Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 Start DateAscending Winner
India in New Zealand Test Series, 1975/76
3 5 0 178 64 35.60 0 1 0 24 Jan 1976 drawn view innings
India in West Indies Test Series, 1975/76
4 7 0 279 85 39.85 0 2 0 10 Mar 1976 West Indies view innings
India in Australia Test Series, 1977/78
5 9 0 445 100 49.44 1 3 2 2 Dec 1977 Australia view innings
India in Pakistan Test Series, 1978/79
3 5 0 98 53 19.60 0 1 0 16 Oct 1978 Pakistan view innings
India in England Test Series, 1979
2 3 0 41 31 13.66 0 0 1 12 Jul 1979 England view innings
India in Pakistan Test Series, 1982/83
6 10 2 584 120 73.00 3 3 0 10 Dec 1982 Pakistan view innings
India in West Indies Test Series, 1982/83
5 9 0 598 117 66.44 2 4 0 23 Feb 1983 West Indies view innings
India in Pakistan Test Series, 1984/85
2 3 1 174 101* 87.00 1 0 0 17 Oct 1984 drawn view innings
India in Sri Lanka Test Series, 1985
2 4 1 216 116* 72.00 1 1 0 6 Sep 1985 Sri Lanka view innings
India in Australia Test Series, 1985/86
3 4 1 223 138 74.33 1 0 0 13 Dec 1985 drawn view innings
India in England Test Series, 1986
2 4 0 172 79 43.00 0 2 0 5 Jun 1986 India

Except for the Pakistan and England series in 78-79, he was very good consistently. There are not enough players who had his consistency overseas.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

BTW, the idea that not outs help a batsman is complete BS. Batsmen are a lot more vulnerable when they start their innings. It is much harder to score 70 in two innings without getting out in the first innings than to score that in one innings. That is because when you get set, getting the extra runs are easier. When you have to start your innings twice, chances are you will average less. So, people who have more Not Outs should actually have their averages adjusted upwards and not downwards.

In anyway, Jimmy often batted at #3 and did not have that many not outs abroad. 5 NOs out of 63. And, if he batted at #3 and remained not out, then it speaks poorly of the rest of the team, assuming the innings was completed.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

The only thing you can argue against Patil was that he did not have a long career. So, perhaps it was easier to maintain a higher average abroad for him than others who played longer.

Patil averaged 62.2 in Australia (3 tests), 37.2 in NZ (3 tests), 191 in Eng (2 tests), 24.71 in Pak (4 tests), 44.66 in Pak (2 tests). Small career? Yes.

But, he played well abroad.

Prabhakar 28 in Aus (5 tests), 33 in Eng (3 tests), 59 in NZ (3 tests), 56 in Pak (4 tests), 18.66 in RSA (4 tests), 51 in SL (3 tests), and 14 in Zim (1 test). Now, possibly all these runs were not scored as an opener. So, we can debate that.

But what this says is that no more than 4 of our opening batsmen averaged more than 35.8 overseas. Ever! Pretty dismal.
User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 19124
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: India's Dream Cricket Test Team

Post by prasen9 »

If you put a 600 run qualification to keep Prabhakar and Karthik out, then our best openers (by avg.) have been:

Gavaskar, Dravid, Gambhir, Sehwag, Shastri, Dhawan

in that order. If you play Dravid in the MO, then Rahul is at #6 (3rd team).

Nobody else averaged more than 35 opening for India. Ever.

I was choosing based on their lifetime work. Just being good for three years is not good enough if you have failed again and again.

You can choose a qualifying number of runs to keep Prabhakar and Patil out. But, that will not do much to sugarcoat Vishy, Azhar, and Vengsarkar's lacklustre performances abroad. Their averages will still remain bad.

Vengsarkar averages 32.73 abroad lifetime despite his purple patch in England, etc. Even Dhoni should walk into an abroad team before him as a pure bat. Azhar and Vishwanath were marginally better than Prabhakar as a bat abroad. But, I included Prabhakar because I needed an opener and in very limited number of matches Prabhakar averaged over 50 as an opener abroad. I would be fine if you want him out because of a small body of work.

Maybe I am too pissed at these so-called stalwarts like Pujara, Vishy, Vengsarkar, and Azhar failing again and again abroad.
Post Reply