ODI World Cup, 2023

[prasen9]

It is never too early to pontificate. So, here goes. I was wondering about our spinning all-rounder options. Typically, they will bat #7, #8, #9. In some cases like Jadeja, he may bat up the order if his form is good.

With the bat:
Ashwin 16.44@87
Jadeja 32.6@87
ARP 19.05@105
Washy 32@87
Kullu 13@66

For #7, the fight should be between Washy and Jadeja only. The others are not really that great and will weaken the batting. Axar could be considered if we want a fast finisher. But, this becomes hard because we will have 2-3 #11s in our pacers and need a solid #7. And #8.

With the ball:
Ashwin 33.49@4.94
Jaddu 37.36@4.92
Axar 31.07@4.44
Washy 24.12@4.82
Kullu 27.59@5.17

In India, the finger-spinners will do fine. Axar seems to be the most economical, followed by Washy, Jaddu, Ashwin - about the same, with Kullu (and Chahal) being substantially more expensive.

Washy has small sample size. We should see where his batting stands and his bowling. His batting average may decrease, SR increase, bowling average increase and runs/over increase but we need to give him chances.

So, what do we do? Difficult to say. But, I would possibly go with Jadeja, Axar, and Washy. They can bat and bowl and will mean we bat a bit fearlessly in the MO and can play three strike pace bowlers if we want to. Gives us more value.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Economy is of no use now in shorter format cricket. 10 overs 60 runs, 4 or 5 wickets will be more accetable spell then 30 for no wickets in 10 overs. T20 & T10 cricket has given a batter an option of switching gears at any phase in odi cricket.Therefore, importance of taking wickets matters in creating pressure in batting side. If games starts in 1:30 pm D/N Bhisnoi will be more useful then Chahal as his bowl skids in surface, so he will be more useful in dew condition just like Piyush Chawla in 2011 WC in few games.

[prasen9]

I would love wicket takers but there is no bowler who takes 2-3 times the wickets than others regularly leave aside 4-5 times (actually infinitely more in your example) than the competition. Washy averages 24, Kullu 27, Axar 31, Ashwin 33, and Jadeja 37. Washy, Kullu, and Ashwin spin the ball the same way. I'd take Washy over Kuldeep because of his batting. He also takes more wickets and is more economical. Altogether, he gives more value than Kuldeep. Chahal is a #11 and has to battle it out with the pacers. We cannot take 4 #11s in the team. The pacers give more value than him wrt bowling. He has also been really ineffective.

I would say wicket-taking is more important than economy but keeping it tight also results in wickets. When bowlers give it away with 1-2 bad balls per over, then the batsmen do not take risks and wickets do not fall. The English do it this way. They just keep the discipline. Batsmen try to hit and eventually succumb.

If we had a real strike bowler, then we would have preferred them, of course. But, given the performances, Kuldeep and Chahal are just slightly more strike bowlers than Axar and Washy while being awful bats. So, the allrounders come in. If you push Hardik to bowl 10 overs and have only two pacers who are #11s, then we can make a spot for Kuldeep or Chahal. But, Hardik has become lousy as a batter and a bowler instead of developing as a true allrounder.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Sundar & Axar's allrounder skills is quite similar to Thakur & Deepak Chahar. Team can't rely upon these guys. These players have got skills but they haven't taken seriously. Axar, as i remember was once a no. 3 for Kings XI entire IPL season, under Adam Gilchrist, that was his first & last under a skipper who thought he could have been a genuine allrounder. Domestic Cricket & IPL skippers had huge impact in making Pandya & Jadeja genuine allrounders with skipper MSD supporting both of them. Sundar, opens for the TNPL franchise and has performed but has never done regularly in domestic.So, both of them are nothing but 7/8 who could score 20-30s. Want to see both Axar, Sundar getting bat at n.o 4/5 in remaining Odis before WC so that some allround skill found in them against top teams

[prasen9]

To be best at 7/8, you need to bat at 7/8 or maybe 6. You don't need to face the new ball. And, if you are not that good, no team will play you at #3 just because. Hardik is not a genuine allrounder in ODIs. A true allrounder should be able to get wickets in ODIs and be able to bowl 10 overs. Hardik is a bits and pieces player at this point. He may have been an allrounder but not at this point. He should not be in the first team. He should battle it out with the Thakurs, etc. to be the 3rd bowler. He takes wickets at 38.55@5.58. That is Sourav Ganguly type bowling ability, aka part-timer. Although their pace is different. Hardik has been a huge disappointment.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Thakur & Deepak are zero in batting. Recent Bangladesh series was big example. Hardik can never be compared with these half batter & half bowlers

[prasen9]

Everyone can be compared to everyone. Hardik should not be in our first 11 with his awful bowling and bits and pieces batting except as a hard hitting #7. But, I'd prefer Axar there because Hardik will not play as the 3rd pacer and Axar can bowl a full quota. He can hit as hard as Hardik but will give us less runs. In essence, we do not have a true allrounder. Thakur gives us 20 runs with the bat but is awful with the ball. DLC is always hurt. It is stupid to go with anecdotes. Look at their overall records.

With the bat:
Hardik 33.27@112
DLC 33.23@98.06
Thakur 19.05@107

Hardik and DLC are about the same with the bat except Hardik is substantially faster and that is valuable. DLC's numbers suffer from small sample size.

Wrt bowling:
DLC 30.56@5.75
Hardik 38.6@5.6
Thakur 32.8@6.19

DLC is the best bowler. Thakur close to him and Hardik is awful wrt taking wickets. I agree with you that economy rate is a bit secondary. So, DLC is the better bowler. Hardik's batting is acceptable for a lower order bat but his bowling is woeful.

If DLC can perform as he has, he gives better value than Hardik.

Anyway, if Hardik cannot bowl a full 10 overs, he cannot play in #7-11. So, #5-6, we need a batter who can bowl. The obvious choice is Jadeja. And, not Hardik. If we play 3 pacers and 3 spinners including the 6th bowler, then Jadeja, Axar, and Washy are the obvious choices given the value they give with the bat because our pacers are duds with the bat, except DLC. On spinning pitches, we could think of Hardik as the 3rd pacer but he will not finish his quota and maybe that would be okay. In normal pitches, we need 3 pacers bowling a full 10 overs and we have to go with our strike bowlers. The value of a 3rd spinner is more imho than a 4th pacer on Indian pitches. I'd keep Hardik in the 14-15 but he clearly does not deserve to be in the 11 fi everyone is fit.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

DLC is best with the new ball and worst among all other bowlers with old ball and bowling tough overs. Skipper hardly needs a pacer who will continously bowl full qouta of 10 overs as he is worst with old ball. There is no one closed to Hardik in finishing game, he done it in T20Is and also in odi against England, also had a good innings Aussies in Australia in one of the Odis.DLC 's new ball talent and Thakur's 20-30 r aren't enough to replace Hardik or consider them as 3rd pacer. Axar & Sundar should be given some go at the top order as spin going to be main armoury for 2023 WC, to find someone who can bat at top order (against Starc & Co.,Rashid& Mujeeb in remaining odis) and an wicket taking option will be a gem for skipper

[prasen9]

That's just B.S. if we are talking about ODIs. Hardik maybe called to finish the game but he hardly makes a difference in ODIs. He is called because Rohit is his buddy. He has continuously bowled awfully both at the beginning and the end. He hardly took wickets and got thrashed all over as the first ODI against NZ showed. T20I is a different game where batters take a lot more risk. He is fine in T20Is. When the batsman is taking less risks, his brainless short-pitched bowling is thrashed because the batter can wait a bit to choose the right balls and inevitably he bowls the crappy ball. DLC and Thakur are also rudderless, more ruderless, but they at least take wickets. The record shows. He is at best a Ganguly wrt taking wickets. I'd rather take early wickets with DLC and wickets all along with Thakur and give away a few runs than have Hardik bowl. ODI is about taking wickets and not about restrictive bowling. Now, his batting is what maybe useful.

With DLC you get about the same runs as Hardik. Thakur is, of course, a much poorer bat. I am not a big fan of Thakur but Hardik needs to perform better in order to be in the first XI or should be left out.

I will not argue your anecdotes. Every dog has his day. Just because he had one match in England where he was good does not mean we need to ignore his body of work that is crap with the ball in ODIs. And, the WC is not in England. In helpful pitches, even Ganguly was the boss.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

I also not want to argue regarding half allrounders DLC or Thakur. DLC has also once in a blue moon performance, skipper gave him quite few games since SA tour, but he has been horrible. Bangladesh tracks are quite similar to Indian tracks, he was given a chance both with bat & ball but failed in both cases. He can't even bowl to a tailender when 9 wickets were down, continued to ball length balls and Mehidy tonked him all over the places for 4's &6s when the game completely belonged to India with no pressure to the bowling team. A pace bowler who can't ball tough overs in odi cricket are useless, 130 kph bowler who relies on slower deliveries and length ball is venomless in odis.India will have zero advantage in picking a player who needs to ball all his over before power plays, his batting also neither gurantees he will take the team to respected total or finish games.DLC, Thakur for Hardik is a big joke. Team is already filled with bunch of one dimmensional cricketers picking half allrounders will make bowling look more weak, needs 3 complete pacers with Hardik the allrounder for the WC.Games will be played in flat tracks bowlers who has got special skills will get success

[prasen9]

Who says DLC, Thakur for Hardik? I am saying all three should be kept out. 38.55 runs/wicket is a big joke. If DLC has been bad in a few matches, Hardik has been in many, many matches for him to be so pedestrian wrt getting wickets. That's over 70 matches. No team can win the world cup if you are banking on someone who gives away nearly 40 runs to take a wicket to be a strike bowler for you. And, without wickets, you lose. For your Bangladesh match, Hardik was manhandled in the NZ ODI badly. He has been milked all over his 70 ODIs. That is not 7. Yes, DLC may not be good. But, Hardik is proven bad. I will risk newcomers who may be good to someone who has been bad for a long time with the ball. None of our bowlers can bowl in the death. On top of that Hardik does not get wickets. All three are crap. I have no problems in saying that. As bowlers. But, if you force me to choose, I'll choose DLC if he is fit over Hardik for a bowling-allrounder's slot. At least he has been bad in maybe 10 matches and has an upside. Hardik has been awful with the ball over 70 matches.

My solution is to take three spinning allrounders. And, take three strike pace bowlers. That may be our best option when we have no pace-bowling allrounder.

[prasen9]

We have been discussing this in the WTC thread. So, bringing it back to this thread.

Our best batters: Rohit, Gill, Kohli, Rahul, Iyer, Ishan, Jadeja, Hardik

we should play all of them.

Bowlers: we need 2 spinners + 2 pacers or 1 spinner + 3 pacers

This is where things get dicey. Two pacers: Shami and Siraj.

The rest two. If we go with 3 pacers, the third pacer cannot be a #11 batter. So, DLC or Shardul.

If we go with 2 spinners, I'd play Sundar/Axar and Kuldeep/Chahar.

Backup Batter/keeper: Samson

I have named 17 people above. If I have to go to 15, drop Thakur and maybe drop Axar?

Anyway, we need to give Umran, Kuldip, Samson, Sundar, Axar, Kuldeep, etc. chances in the ODI games we have left to build them up. As well as Gill and Ishan.

We have 3 ODIs in WI, three against Australia at home and the Asia Cup, should it happen. We need to play the juniors and see who cuts it and who cannot.

[Raju Bhai]

Amit Mishra & Piyush Chawla should be in 2023 WC Squad both have lots of experience

[prasen9]

They have not played ODIs recently. If they do and do better than Chahal/Kuldeep, then why not.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

After WTC loss today 50 over WC is next big thing.

Question is simple. Who will be our 4-5 pacers and their replacements, 3 spinners and their replacements for upcomming WC keeping dew in mind ?

Dew has huge impact in indian cricket team performance right from 1996WC semis to 2005 BCCI Platinum Jubilee Match in Eden Gardens, 2016 T20Semis at Wankhade, 2021T20WC against Pak, 2022 T20WC semis and in uocomming WC it will have huge impact