Under19 World Cup 2022 : West Indies

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Not three but Rohit was there in 2007 T20 WC who performed in crucial games 50 against SA in Semi, after 2006 U19 WC

Right. One may happen. I did not say that anyone cannot. You said three people will make it to the WC team. That is what I was objecting to. And, you had to go back to Rohit in 2007, fourteen years ago to find a case. Shows you how rare that is and how rare it is in these days.

Another way would be to look at U-19 captains. Typically, the captains are the best or near-best players in the team.

Pagnis, Kaif, Parthiv, Dinesh Kartik, Ravikanth Shukla, Kohli, Menaria, Chand, Zol, Kishan, Shaw.

How many had a good career? Kohli is a great. Kaif was a regular. Parthiv and Dinesh were at times. The jury is still out for Kishan and Shaw. About 50% of the captains do not even make the Indian team. Only three of these, i.e., 3/9, ever played a WC match. Not counting the last two.

So, if you were betting, you'd be better off betting an individual will fail to make the Indian team than make it, leave aside the WC.

Not rare. Many are there

Yuvraj Singh played 2000 Under19 World Cup and was part of ICC Champions Trophy 2000

Kaif played 2000 Under19 World Cup became part of ICC Champions trophy 2002


Rohit Sharma in 2007 T20 World Cup

Ravindra Jadeja played 2008 Under 19 World Cup and also played 2009 T20 World Cup in UK.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Show me one world cup where we had three U-19 players from the year before play. End of story. Just like Chand, etc. could not perform in domestics and failed, most U-19 players are hyped during the U-19 world cup and then fail. Most from among this team will also fail. That is the way the law of averages goes.

OMG You are so much confident that these Under 19s will fail like Chand & Co.

Yes. I am confident in statistics. Why are you all talk and no action? Instead of blowing hot air and spewing nonsense, all you have to do is to show me in the past umpteen world cups where we had three 20-21 year olds who played in a U-19 WC the year before and played in the senior WC the year after. If you are so confident about this happening, just show me when it (three players) happened before as you were hoping/claiming will from this team. U-19 players are always hyped and most fail. And, if it has never happened before especially in the last decade or so, then why will it happen now? Is there any specific evidence? Are these guys averages double (in batting) of their peers? Half in bowling? Or what? Miracles do not happen. I am confident. I cannot tell you who will fail. But, I can tell you that three characters from this team will not make the 2023 WC team. Guaranteed.

20-21 years old playing Under 19 World Cup is differant issue

[prasen9]

Not rare. Many are there

Yuvraj Singh played 2000 Under19 World Cup and was part of ICC Champions Trophy 2000

Kaif played 2000 Under19 World Cup became part of ICC Champions trophy 2002


Rohit Sharma in 2007 T20 World Cup

Ravindra Jadeja played 2008 Under 19 World Cup and also played 2009 T20 World Cup in UK.

Great. What next? Someone who played in 1977 and then played in 1978?

Thank you for proving my point about how rare this is. There are possibly about 160 players who have represented India in U-19 WCs.

And, btw, can you count? Should I point you to a Khan Academy lesson on how to count? My kindergartener learned very fast how to count by seeing some videos. You said three, I repeat, three players will be in the next WC from this U-19 WC Indian team. I said over my dead body. That is the argument. Do not move the goalposts. I never said odd cases of people graduating in a year did not happen, although you will be hard pressed to find that in the last decade.

T20 WC is a different ball game. We take a lot more risks in T20 teams. Not so in ODI teams. Even less in ODI WCs. They stuck with an old Rayudu and Kedar because they wanted to play people who are seasoned and have experience. Dhoni has said that he wants people with at least 50 ODIs chosen for the WCs and they have tried to get people who have matured. Three U-19 players in the next WC - not going to happen.

[PKBasu]

prasen9's original question that started this raging debate "name one India under-19 side from which 3 players made the full Indian team within a year" can be answered quite quickly. The 2000 India under-19 World Cup winning team was led by Mohammed Kaif (who was a batting all-rounder, who bowled a lot more than Yuvi for that side). From that team, 3 players made their ODI debuts in the very same year (2000) -- Yuvraj (who became a near-great in ODIs), Kaif himself, and Reetinder Sodhi. A fourth member, Ajay Ratra, had a brief test and ODI career that lasted just about a year or two, starting in early 2002 (2 years after the end of that World Cup).

The following team -- for the 2002 under-19 World Cup -- was led by 17 year old Parthiv Patel (see this https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/part ... team-98134). Parthiv himself was to make his test debut for India later the same year (August 2002) in England, while Irfan Pathan made his debut in 2003. Stuart Binny made his international debut a bit later. Although he wasn't in the original side, Suresh Raina later was added to the under-19 side for the World Cup. He made his ODI debut in 2005.

[PKBasu]

The 2008 under-19 World Cup-winning side was led by Virat Kohli, who went on to play for India later that year, destroying Ajantha Mendis and Murali, who had together mesmerized the Big Five of Indian batting in the test series that preceded the ODIs in which Kohli burst in. Jadeja, vice captain, made his debut for India within a year (in 2009). The captain and vice captain became all-format greats. Four others from that side went on to play for India -- Manish Pandey, Siddharth Kaul, Saurabh Tiwary played ODIs (Pandey T20Is too), and Abhinav Mukund was to become a test player in 2011.

[prasen9]

Thanks PKB. So, this (3 U-19 WC players from one team making the ODI WC next year) does not happen often and is rare indeed. More rare in the last decade when we moved towards preferring more seasoned players and have been ranked highly in ODIs, tests, etc. consistently.

To argue the other side, well ODI WCs themselves are rare, happening after every four years. So, we may relax the requirement to say ODI WC/Champions Trophy/T20 WC. Even then, we will be hard-pressed to find three players make it to a team within the next year.

BTW, the case of Parthiv is interesting. I think he was in a WC team but never played a WC match. Kind of like Sunil Valson, who I think was in the world cup team ('83) but did not play anything.

[prasen9]

2000 was about the time when we first won an U-19 world cup. We are a country deprived of sports success. So, people hyped up the U-19s. Also, in the last three WCs we were #7, #3, and #6 --- no great shakes. So, we were hungry for change. Eventually, Kaif and Yuvraj made it to be regulars. They also brought fitness into the equation and ability to bowl a bit. They were ushered in.

In 2007, we were 9th. So, again a period of transition and two great players Kohli and Ravi Jadeja burst in a year.

Currently, our ODI team is not that bad and our results have not tanked that badly. So, I do not see the youngsters barging in. Now, if India suddenly tanks in ODIs and starts losing a lot of series and being white-washed, I'll have to go looking for edible shoes. Not going to happen though.

[Kumar]

We are at transition! We Re now dependent on Rohit to stay fir to have fighting chance at both the WC! I think India should just do what we did in 2007 and look to bring in lot of this players

[SaniaFan]

I'll have to go looking for edible shoes.

Eating shoes is fine.... there is a option of english or hindi... But over the dead body is concerning....
We can live with less than 3

[prasen9]

Okay, so I am using hyperbole. What's new?

I do not care if 3 or all 11 are from the U-19 team. All I care is that we win the WC. We pretty much need a home WC (which we have) and our stars to align to win.

My pet peeve. Why does England keep getting WCs? Here are the counts:

England 5

Ind, Pak 1
Pak, Ind, SL 1
Ind, SL, Ban 1

RSA 1

WI 1

Aus + NZ 2

India is supposedly getting 2 more (with Ban in 2031). And, RSA is getting one with Nam, Zim.

We should not give England any more WCs until everyone else has had 5. I'd give RSA and WI and Aus+NZ several more before thinking of the others.

Australia, of course, has shown who is the boss. They have won 5 WCs. Ind and WI come next with 2 each.

If you normalize, Pak got 1, SL got 2/3rd, Ban 1/3rd, and India almost 1. Aus, NZ 1 each (although both finals were in Aus). So pretty much everyone has got one WC while England got 5!!! Stupidity. India should use their clout to prevent England getting any more WCs.

We will move to 2 in 2023. and 2.5 in 2031. RSA will move above 1 in 2027.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Not rare. Many are there

Yuvraj Singh played 2000 Under19 World Cup and was part of ICC Champions Trophy 2000

Kaif played 2000 Under19 World Cup became part of ICC Champions trophy 2002


Rohit Sharma in 2007 T20 World Cup

Ravindra Jadeja played 2008 Under 19 World Cup and also played 2009 T20 World Cup in UK.

Great. What next? Someone who played in 1977 and then played in 1978?

Thank you for proving my point about how rare this is. There are possibly about 160 players who have represented India in U-19 WCs.

And, btw, can you count? Should I point you to a Khan Academy lesson on how to count? My kindergartener learned very fast how to count by seeing some videos. You said three, I repeat, three players will be in the next WC from this U-19 WC Indian team. I said over my dead body. That is the argument. Do not move the goalposts. I never said odd cases of people graduating in a year did not happen, although you will be hard pressed to find that in the last decade.

T20 WC is a different ball game. We take a lot more risks in T20 teams. Not so in ODI teams. Even less in ODI WCs. They stuck with an old Rayudu and Kedar because they wanted to play people who are seasoned and have experience. Dhoni has said that he wants people with at least 50 ODIs chosen for the WCs and they have tried to get people who have matured. Three U-19 players in the next WC - not going to happen.

Ok. You dont agree that three or more will be the part of WC from Under 19s. Let see India's middle order. Perfect ones are SKY /Shreyas/ Hooda. KL & Ishan Kisan for you can bat anywhere from 1 to 6 or 7. In otherwords KL & Ishan are our make shift players, straighty way them along with Ruturaj will not allow any perfect, experienced middle order or lower order in the Playing XI.

India had done it under Kohli and failed. One or two can be successful say a Shewag under Ganguly who became legend after getting shifted from 6 to opener or a Rohit Sharma under Dhoni who became star after opening the batting. 2018 - 2019 it proved all can't be successful as mixed shift players. DK who modeled himselves as finisher was sent to bat at 4 in semis of cwc 2019. Pant was number 5/6 now he is at 4. Overall, there is plenty of confusion in that middle order which is completely unsettled.

If we check other top teams, say England, AUS, SA they have many at the middle order who can bat & bowl and once a regular bowler gets punished those bowlers gives captain an advantage. Maxwell, Mitchel Marsh, Moeen Ali, Markram, Livingstone, Shoaib Malik. In indian team there is no one among top 5 /6 who can bat & ball. Hardik, Jadeja plays in the team as allrounder and are counted among 5 bowlers, ( Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Rahul, Pant - nearly 55% fixed for WC, 6th will be audition between Shreyas or SKY, Jadeja or Sundar. It will depend on captain what they want extra batsman ,allrounder, or a batter who can bowl.Now, 7th spot between Hardik ,Deepak or Thakur.Now if one bowler has bad day, captain has no clue as none of the top 5 balls regularly. If we look in domestic, we have Hooda, Abdul Samad, Aparajith who can give few overs but plenty of improvement is required for them to be part of team India. Hooda has got picked it will be seen how much he can give to the team in that middle over. In domestic also india lacks middle order batsman who can ball.

Now, if you look at that under 19 side there is plenty who can do both the job. They have domestic season to perform and become eligible for senior team. Success or Failure depends on their future but what India wants from them is their allround abilities.

[prasen9]

I am not disagreeing that the middle order is muddled. But, it was the same the last time. The selectors are risk-averse and chose the oldies. They are not going to choose three 20 year olds in the WC squad.

[prasen9]

Now, if you look at that under 19 side there is plenty who can do both the job. They have domestic season to perform and become eligible for senior team. Success or Failure depends on their future but what India wants from them is their allround abilities.

I looked. There is not a single one in the U-19 team that can do both jobs at the international level. They may after 3-4 years of seasoning. But, currently, not a single one. If Hooda, Samad, and Aparajith need improvement, and they do, the U-19 need orders of magnitude more improvement than them. That is what history has taught us. From Pagnis to Chand, from Ratra to Gill, people have struggled to cope with the international game. The U-19 folks are simply not ready, with a few rare exceptions: the great ones such as Kohli, Rohit, Raina, and Jadeja. That's about it. If Gill is finding it hard to cope, these 19 year olds are not that much more talented that they will figure it out in 1 year. Not three of them. So, no, there is nobody in the U-19 team that can do the job now. Chances are more that people like Iyer and Gill will figure it out faster than these U-19 folks.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Now, if you look at that under 19 side there is plenty who can do both the job. They have domestic season to perform and become eligible for senior team. Success or Failure depends on their future but what India wants from them is their allround abilities.

I looked. There is not a single one in the U-19 team that can do both jobs at the international level. They may after 3-4 years of seasoning. But, currently, not a single one. If Hooda, Samad, and Aparajith need improvement, and they do, the U-19 need orders of magnitude more improvement than them. That is what history has taught us. From Pagnis to Chand, from Ratra to Gill, people have struggled to cope with the international game. The U-19 folks are simply not ready, with a few rare exceptions: the great ones such as Kohli, Rohit, Raina, and Jadeja. That's about it. If Gill is finding it hard to cope, these 19 year olds are not that much more talented that they will figure it out in 1 year. Not three of them. So, no, there is nobody in the U-19 team that can do the job now. Chances are more that people like Iyer and Gill will figure it out faster than these U-19 folks.

Its too early to predict that under 19 will fail with 0 domestic games in their names.

[Atithee]

Let’s talk about actual cricket now. The Indian lads are doing well in the final but the old habit of the inability to finish the great work is really hurting again.