Well at the end the runs count. Does not matter how ugly. Vihari did not get out and scored runs. He was trying to hit because our end tail (#9-11) is the worst in cricket.
I would rather be South Africa now. I hope the think tank figure out things and get the rest cheaply tomorrow.
Our top seven contributed between 50-60 runs in the match with one exception: Pant. His horrendous shot cost us about 20-30 runs at least - one partnership and that may be the match.
The bowlers added 28, 9, 21, 1. That is poor. Especially #9. Shami is a poor #9. They have to make up with the ball.
India in South Africa, 2021-22
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PKBasu
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Definitely Advantage South Africa, with just 122 runs to make with 8 wickets in hand. India need to get Elgar early on the 4th morning if there is to be any hope of winning this match. India's bowling effort was shambolic this evening. Too many loose and wasted balls. The aggressive body language and alertness (hence pressure on the opposition) that Kohli brings was sorely missed.
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
It's supposed to rain today and tomorrow. For a change, I will not mind this match to be washed out totally, given our position. The optimists will perhaps think that India will come out ahead with the weather being damp, etc. but I'd take a draw. Although, it is unlikely that it will rain for two whole days here. Let's see.
I think Pujara and Rahane picked up on the Ashwin method. I have said I love Ashwin's thinking nature. And, then the South Africans picked up the Ashwin-Pujara-Rahane method but in the last hour or so they became quieter regressing to their original game plan after they gained pole position. Our bowlers could not adjust fast and gave away a bunch of runs. It does not seem that Bumrah and Shami are that potent anymore and they seem to have lost their zip, etc. that was there at the beginning of the series. RSA got used to them? These guys got tired? Shami is still taking wickets. God is God. But, Bumrah is slightly off. He is also a thinking bowler. So, hopefully, he has gone back to the computer and seen what he is doing and what he was doing before, etc. Ashwin: can't complain, these are not wickets where spinners get wickets and he has done fine. Siraj has been sort of bad. He too started well. What is it with our players fading? Tiredness because they play so much? Or are they simply not good enough to last and get worked out? Not fit? So many are getting injured while the other team does not have these issues. Don't mind Ishant/Umesh for the last test. I'd rather choose Ishant because he, at least can stay at the wicket, and let's see if he still cuts it instead of blocking one spot in the team for the future.
I think Pujara and Rahane picked up on the Ashwin method. I have said I love Ashwin's thinking nature. And, then the South Africans picked up the Ashwin-Pujara-Rahane method but in the last hour or so they became quieter regressing to their original game plan after they gained pole position. Our bowlers could not adjust fast and gave away a bunch of runs. It does not seem that Bumrah and Shami are that potent anymore and they seem to have lost their zip, etc. that was there at the beginning of the series. RSA got used to them? These guys got tired? Shami is still taking wickets. God is God. But, Bumrah is slightly off. He is also a thinking bowler. So, hopefully, he has gone back to the computer and seen what he is doing and what he was doing before, etc. Ashwin: can't complain, these are not wickets where spinners get wickets and he has done fine. Siraj has been sort of bad. He too started well. What is it with our players fading? Tiredness because they play so much? Or are they simply not good enough to last and get worked out? Not fit? So many are getting injured while the other team does not have these issues. Don't mind Ishant/Umesh for the last test. I'd rather choose Ishant because he, at least can stay at the wicket, and let's see if he still cuts it instead of blocking one spot in the team for the future.
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PKBasu
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
South Africa are racing away to victory. Just 100 more runs needed, 8 wickets still standing. India are desperately missing the hero of the last victory at this ground -- Bhuvneshwar Kumar, who hasn't played a test match since!! Only India does such bizarre things!
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Yes, bizarre indeed. Kumar and Shardul getting wickets here means that swing bowlers and not express pacers a la Bumrah are the need of the wicket. Anyway, a very shambolic bowling performance in I4. Taking the series as a whole, meaning both matches, only Shami and Thakur have bowled well. Bumrah has been okay. Ashwin has been substandard because of the pitches and Siraj has been bad. While Siraj does deserve a longer rope and not the oldies, this team gives oldies a longer rope and chops and changes the youngsters. So, I expect Siraj to be dropped next match and just going by this series that may not be a bad decision.
This batting lineup has not scored over 300 very much abroad. Now not over 200 in this series with any regularity. We need batting reinforcements. Kohli is possibly too dense to accept that. Let's see if Dravid can prevail or even has the power to say that we need one more batter especially given that Pant has been worked out in the last 8-9 tests (see Karthik's article on ESPNC.)
Don't know if Cape Town assists spinners a bit or not. Depending upon that, we need to decide judiciously. Got very little from the fourth seamer in this match. Which is why BCCI needs to get on Hardik's back and try to fix his bowling and fitness. Would have loved Bhuvi's swing and bat here. If he needs match practice, why not send him with the A-team? The answer seems to be that someone in the BCCI has decided that Bhuvi's body cannot take tests and wants him to only play limited overs. Bhuvi himself has said several times that he would like to play the long form of the game.
This batting lineup has not scored over 300 very much abroad. Now not over 200 in this series with any regularity. We need batting reinforcements. Kohli is possibly too dense to accept that. Let's see if Dravid can prevail or even has the power to say that we need one more batter especially given that Pant has been worked out in the last 8-9 tests (see Karthik's article on ESPNC.)
Don't know if Cape Town assists spinners a bit or not. Depending upon that, we need to decide judiciously. Got very little from the fourth seamer in this match. Which is why BCCI needs to get on Hardik's back and try to fix his bowling and fitness. Would have loved Bhuvi's swing and bat here. If he needs match practice, why not send him with the A-team? The answer seems to be that someone in the BCCI has decided that Bhuvi's body cannot take tests and wants him to only play limited overs. Bhuvi himself has said several times that he would like to play the long form of the game.
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PKBasu
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
I would send for Bhuvi immediately. Bumrah has been pretty useless in this series. It's pointless looking great without getting the wickets! He is coming to SA for the ODI series anyway, get him there a bit earlier and play him in the Cape Town test. Instead of replacing Siraj with Ishant, I would bring in Bhuvi to strengthen both the batting and bowling. Four years ago, we had a pure-pace attack at the Wanderers. Ashwin gets to play the final test because his batting has been useful, and his bowling has been tight, although getting just 3 wickets in the two tests.
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
In Cape Town, the pacers get wickets at 22.85 and spinners at 48.81 in the last five years. We should play six bats, Pant, and 4 pacers. I'd be glad to get Bhuvi in but the team will not. So, let's go with Ishant or Umesh. Slight preference for Ishant because he bats more balls. Whoever is our in best six bats should play. I would possibly drop Ashwin and keep Vihari because I think Vihari is a slightly better bat but won't argue Ashwin being chosen because the difference is not that much and in case it spins, very low probability btw, then Ashwin can play a bigger role.
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Rahul is talking about Pujara and Rahane's 50s. Really? It is high time that we look at at least the totals in a match and not individual innings and discount this mental thing about 50s and 100s. Someone scoring two 26 and 28 makes the same contribution as someone scoring 50 and 4. But the guy who scored the 50 gets the kudos.
While we should look at more longer term, at least look at the whole match. Remarkably all of our top-7 scored between 50 and 60 runs except Pant, who is gone down the drains since Brisbane. So, nobody really put their hand up and everyone was about the same. Maybe with the exception of Gade who did it with one out and the others did it with two. Gade can ask for an incomplete grade and not an F (or maybe a D if you are charitable, with Pant getting the F with the bat).
While we should look at more longer term, at least look at the whole match. Remarkably all of our top-7 scored between 50 and 60 runs except Pant, who is gone down the drains since Brisbane. So, nobody really put their hand up and everyone was about the same. Maybe with the exception of Gade who did it with one out and the others did it with two. Gade can ask for an incomplete grade and not an F (or maybe a D if you are charitable, with Pant getting the F with the bat).
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indiansportsfan
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Is this the same pace bowling lineup that people were going ga-ga after the 1st Test? It's clearly evident they are not as good as RSA in these conditions, and clearly AUS pace attack is also much much better than ours and NZC and ENG attacks have also proven to be much better in their home conditions, so I don't know how we can claim our pace attack to be world leading. (PAK is also much better I think). I would not personally put ours in the top half of Test playing nations.
It's really our batting (even with the middle order not performing upto expectations) and Ashwin that have allowed us to win most of these matches abroad lately. Really I don't know what country's batting lineup I would put above ours. ENG and RSA's batting is rather shitty, NZC seems lost without Williamson as they showed against BAN, only AUS is somewhat at par but they too have been very fragile at times (with Smith seemingly on decline).
It's really our batting (even with the middle order not performing upto expectations) and Ashwin that have allowed us to win most of these matches abroad lately. Really I don't know what country's batting lineup I would put above ours. ENG and RSA's batting is rather shitty, NZC seems lost without Williamson as they showed against BAN, only AUS is somewhat at par but they too have been very fragile at times (with Smith seemingly on decline).
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indiansportsfan
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
And coming to our bowlers tiring out, our 2 main "strike" bowlers have hardly played any cricket for more than a month before this series, how could they burn out after just 1 match? And I don't think their workload in the previous Test match was so high as well. It's simply ridiculous.
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Our bowling attack is fine. They played reasonably well. But, you cannot defend 200 always. Australia's bowling attacks have had runs behind them to defend. I never said that our bowling attack is the best in the world or anything. If anything, I called out Kohli's ridiculous claim that Shami is one of the top-three seamers (maybe seamer is a cop out term). But, I did say and still maintain that this bowling attack is the best we have ever had in my lifetime.
On the other hand, sorry, a team that fails to bat and score 200 or 300 with any regularity is not deserving of any kudos. Australia certainly has a better batting lineup than us. England is certainly crappier. We are marginally ahead on paper if we look at lifetime work than RSA but if we look at the last 2-3 years work, I do not know if I would rate this bunch of crap over RSA. New Zealand has had one fluke bad match but they have a much better batting lineup: Conway, Latham, Mitchell, Taylor, Williamson, Nichols all average over 40. Even if you look at the last 2-3 years, they have done pretty well. I would take the Aussie or the Kiwi lineup wrt batting at the drop of a hat over our nincompoops in this current form.
Now Pakistan: Abid Ali, Shafeeq, Babar, Fawad, Azhar, Rizwan with Faheem as the allrounder or so would be better than ours.
So, at best, I would rate our batting lineup to be certainly after Aussie, Kiwi, slightly worse than Pak, slightly better than RSA (on paper with Rohit in it), and better than the hapless English.
Which of our victories has been due to the regular top-5? I do not remember very many where this lineup has scored consistently over 325 (which is about the average score of teams) or even over 300 in many of our victories. I am not talking about the innings by Thakur, Sundar, and a few by Pant that won us games or the tailenders sometimes wagging. This is one of the worst batting lineup among Indian teams (accounting for form ) I have ever seen. If we had some good batsmen, this bowling lineup would have won many more matches.
On the other hand, sorry, a team that fails to bat and score 200 or 300 with any regularity is not deserving of any kudos. Australia certainly has a better batting lineup than us. England is certainly crappier. We are marginally ahead on paper if we look at lifetime work than RSA but if we look at the last 2-3 years work, I do not know if I would rate this bunch of crap over RSA. New Zealand has had one fluke bad match but they have a much better batting lineup: Conway, Latham, Mitchell, Taylor, Williamson, Nichols all average over 40. Even if you look at the last 2-3 years, they have done pretty well. I would take the Aussie or the Kiwi lineup wrt batting at the drop of a hat over our nincompoops in this current form.
Now Pakistan: Abid Ali, Shafeeq, Babar, Fawad, Azhar, Rizwan with Faheem as the allrounder or so would be better than ours.
So, at best, I would rate our batting lineup to be certainly after Aussie, Kiwi, slightly worse than Pak, slightly better than RSA (on paper with Rohit in it), and better than the hapless English.
Which of our victories has been due to the regular top-5? I do not remember very many where this lineup has scored consistently over 325 (which is about the average score of teams) or even over 300 in many of our victories. I am not talking about the innings by Thakur, Sundar, and a few by Pant that won us games or the tailenders sometimes wagging. This is one of the worst batting lineup among Indian teams (accounting for form ) I have ever seen. If we had some good batsmen, this bowling lineup would have won many more matches.
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Here are the away averages of people who have had 15 dismissals in the last 3 years. I put in 15 to remove people who have played only a few matches here and there.
I think it is legitimate to start asking the question as to whether Pant should be an automatic for test 3 or are we better off playing Saha? Pant is our heir apparent but are his technical and temperamental issues better worked out off the field or should be stick to him? I know what the team management will do but I am asking what should be the right thing to do.
Only Rahul has been good. Rahane has been decent overseas but he has sucked in India. Kohli, Pant, Pujara, Agarwal, and Shami are among the worse performers. Maybe Kohli is slightly worse than average. Rohit struggles to stay fit.JE Root (ENG) 2019-2022 19 35 0 1780 228 50.85 3253 54.71 5 6 2 180 5 investigate this query
Abid Ali (PAK) 2020-2021 11 18 1 826 215* 48.58 1769 46.69 2 3 1 105 3 investigate this query
Babar Azam (PAK) 2019-2021 12 20 2 769 104 42.72 1421 54.11 1 6 1 101 2 investigate this query
Mohammad Rizwan (PAK) 2019-2021 13 20 2 758 95 42.11 1530 49.54 0 7 1 85 3 investigate this query
KL Rahul (INDIA) 2019-2022 8 16 0 620 129 38.75 1494 41.49 2 2 1 82 3 investigate this query
Mominul Haque (BAN) 2019-2022 9 17 2 562 127 37.46 1296 43.36 1 2 2 73 1 investigate this query
J Blackwood (WI) 2020-2021 9 18 0 650 104 36.11 1173 55.41 1 4 1 77 5 investigate this query
TWM Latham (NZ) 2019-2021 10 19 1 645 154 35.83 1609 40.08 1 3 1 59 1 investigate this query
Azhar Ali (PAK) 2019-2021 14 24 2 764 141* 34.72 1820 41.97 2 2 4 102 1 investigate this query
AM Rahane (INDIA) 2019-2022 15 29 2 929 112 34.40 2083 44.59 2 4 3 99 6 investigate this query
BA Stokes (ENG) 2019-2022 17 31 2 971 120 33.48 1924 50.46 1 5 1 113 17 investigate this query
N Dickwella (SL) 2019-2021 12 19 0 623 96 32.78 974 63.96 0 4 1 70 2 investigate this query
OJ Pope (ENG) 2019-2021 11 20 2 577 135* 32.05 1205 47.88 1 3 0 65 2 investigate this query
RJ Burns (ENG) 2019-2021 10 19 0 531 101 27.94 1167 45.50 1 3 3 71 0 investigate this query
DP Sibley (ENG) 2019-2021 12 22 2 558 133* 27.90 1541 36.21 1 2 2 75 1 investigate this query
V Kohli (INDIA) 2019-2021 11 21 0 580 76 27.61 1328 43.67 0 5 2 69 0 investigate this query
FDM Karunaratne (SL) 2019-2021 12 23 1 607 103 27.59 1249 48.59 1 3 0 79 0 investigate this query
LRPL Taylor (NZ) 2019-2021 10 19 2 469 86 27.58 861 54.47 0 3 0 50 2 investigate this query
BKG Mendis (SL) 2019-2021 10 18 2 428 116* 26.75 854 50.11 1 2 5 50 3 investigate this query
RR Pant (INDIA) 2019-2022 14 25 1 642 97 26.75 1118 57.42 0 3 1 70 7 investigate this query
CA Pujara (INDIA) 2019-2022 15 30 1 753 91 25.96 2359 31.92 0 7 2 92 0 investigate this query
KC Brathwaite (WI) 2019-2021 10 20 0 518 76 25.90 1232 42.04 0 4 2 63 0 investigate this query
JC Buttler (ENG) 2019-2022 15 26 2 617 67 25.70 1256 49.12 0 3 2 75 7 investigate this query
Shan Masood (PAK) 2019-2021 8 15 0 384 156 25.60 922 41.64 1 1 4 40 3 investigate this query
MA Agarwal (INDIA) 2019-2022 9 18 0 373 60 20.72 800 46.62 0 3 1 51 2 investigate this query
JM Bairstow (ENG) 2019-2022 10 18 2 331 52 20.68 664 49.84 0 1 3 41 2 investigate this query
HM Nicholls (NZ) 2019-2021 9 15 0 310 61 20.66 765 40.52 0 1 1 25 1 investigate this query
Z Crawley (ENG) 2019-2022 10 17 0 301 66 17.70 682 44.13 0 2 1 41 0 investigate this query
RL Chase (WI) 2019-2021 8 15 0 189 51 12.60 518 36.48 0 1 3 20 0 investigate this query
Mohammed Shami (INDIA) 2019-2022 11 19 4 155 56* 10.33 205 75.60 0 1 6 18 3 investigate this query
I think it is legitimate to start asking the question as to whether Pant should be an automatic for test 3 or are we better off playing Saha? Pant is our heir apparent but are his technical and temperamental issues better worked out off the field or should be stick to him? I know what the team management will do but I am asking what should be the right thing to do.
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SaniaFan
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
How shami is in this list? It's a compliment for him 
Also why there is no Australian in this list? Are they this bad or they have not played away? No wonder they look good as they are playing only in home conditions.
Also I think the test batting standards around the world has fallen in last few years.
Between pant and Saha I don't think Saha was looking good either in the chance he got. What are pants stats after australian tour?
Also why there is no Australian in this list? Are they this bad or they have not played away? No wonder they look good as they are playing only in home conditions.
Also I think the test batting standards around the world has fallen in last few years.
Between pant and Saha I don't think Saha was looking good either in the chance he got. What are pants stats after australian tour?
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
Australia has not played much abroad in the last three years. Yes, perhaps the test batting standards have fallen in the last few years. Seems like that to me too.
Saha does not look good with the bat either but if Pant is a sitting duck against right-handed bowlers bowling over the wicket, then I was thinking of Saha as an alternative. Not too enamoured with Saha either.
I was responding to this observation. Seems like right-arm fast bowlers have figured out how to get him. He has to work things out. Dravid certainly can tell him what needs to be done but whether he will do that and whether Pant can replicate it is the question.
Pant also seems to be thinking too much. Maybe someone should tell him to not bother about anything. Just play his natural game with judiciousness. That is, hit balls that should be hit. Defend or better still leave the ones that are outside. Maybe play at maximum SR of 80 - don't try for 100 or more or artificially try to bat at 30. Maybe hovering around 50-80 SR is the sweet spot for him to maximize his runs. Surely, they pay analysts enough to figure something like that out. The SR is a guidance only. If the bowling and conditions are tough and he is going at 35 that is fine. Ignore that. If they bowl an over of three bad balls in a row, it is meant to be hit, hit it. Just don't think so much and try to either be ultra-defensive or brain-dead offensive. There must be something between 1st gear and 5th gear for test batsmen. That is what I have been saying ...
Saha does not look good with the bat either but if Pant is a sitting duck against right-handed bowlers bowling over the wicket, then I was thinking of Saha as an alternative. Not too enamoured with Saha either.
from: articleSince the end of that series, Pant has played seven Tests, all away from home, and has averaged 19.23. That run of lean form has coincided with right-arm fast bowlers exposing a previously unnoticed - or unexplored - weakness in his game, going over the wicket and tormenting him with the angle across his stumps.
Over his Test career so far, Pant averages 50.28 against right-arm seamers when they've bowled from around the wicket. When they've gone over the wicket, he's averaged 20.06.
During his ongoing horror run of seven Tests, he's not been dismissed once by fast bowlers from around the wicket, but 10 times from over the wicket while averaging 11.50.
I was responding to this observation. Seems like right-arm fast bowlers have figured out how to get him. He has to work things out. Dravid certainly can tell him what needs to be done but whether he will do that and whether Pant can replicate it is the question.
Pant also seems to be thinking too much. Maybe someone should tell him to not bother about anything. Just play his natural game with judiciousness. That is, hit balls that should be hit. Defend or better still leave the ones that are outside. Maybe play at maximum SR of 80 - don't try for 100 or more or artificially try to bat at 30. Maybe hovering around 50-80 SR is the sweet spot for him to maximize his runs. Surely, they pay analysts enough to figure something like that out. The SR is a guidance only. If the bowling and conditions are tough and he is going at 35 that is fine. Ignore that. If they bowl an over of three bad balls in a row, it is meant to be hit, hit it. Just don't think so much and try to either be ultra-defensive or brain-dead offensive. There must be something between 1st gear and 5th gear for test batsmen. That is what I have been saying ...
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prasen9
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Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22
I thought about this a bit. I think this shows how bad our batting has been. No other team's #10 has played 15 innings, possibly because they declared or chased runs without needing to go to #10, etc. Maybe England has batted that badly but they have rotated their bowlers or they have gotten hurt. So, nobody but Shami gets in that list. Root got 35 innings, the Pak batters got 19-20 innings while Rahane got 29 innings. So, England, at least, has played as much as us. Maybe the other teams rotate their pacers a bit more and maybe our batting is bad such that we get all out more.