India in South Africa, 2021-22

As the other sports forums seem to have taken old to some respect, well here is a cricket forum. NOTE: This forum will be heavily moderated and can be revoked at any time is discussions go out of hand.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

Ashwin is smart and knows his limits. He went for his shots judiciously. Pant should have done so. He does not have the technique to last it out. He stupidly went into a shell. The point is not to be like Ravi Shastri, who had a fifth gear and a first gear. It is not either or the other. Ashwin went at 4th gear. Pant should have at least gone at 3rd gear or whatever. After Rahul spoke to him, he stopped playing his shots altogether. Dravid's message should be to find the optimal shot selection for each batsman. We surely pay a lot of analysts.

The pitch does look dry especially at one end. Ashwin should be handy if the pitch gives something, anything. Here's hoping Siraj's injury is minor.

In all the matches God has played, we have won. Despite that ungodly shot, let's hope that God's record stays the same. He needs to mentally prepare to bowl well too again if Siraj is out.


User avatar
Kumar
Authors
Authors
Posts: 5972
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:59 am

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by Kumar »

Did Ashwin come out to field. He got out two balls after the ball stuck his spinning finger. He could immediately sense the body language of Ashwin had changed after getting hit.

Prasen, Bumrah may just have the second best average among india batsman at 35 ! :p

Pujara and Rahane dismissal turned this game. I believe that KL Rahul is not captaincy material. If left alone, Pant may have scored few more runs. Unless, Ashwin is injured he should have been bought into bowl today.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

No, Rahul did the right thing if he said, you need to stay at the wicket and you need to be responsible, etc. Pant did need talking to because he was playing a bit crazy. But, the point is that Pant does not need to play either 1st gear, all defend, or fifth, hit all. He should be told to select his shots. Dravid needs to step in and make him figure out how to select. He was a master at shot selection. Pant's calibration will be different. But, Ashwin showed that he had grasped the situation very well. He could well have been out trying to hit but he could have been out trying to defend too. Pant should have tried to score some more runs. He will learn. Yes, Rahul was pedestrian as a captain, it seems --- difficult to say but it seems the team was not very well prepared.

If you ignore the first day, where RSA were playing after six months, this series has been pretty even, RSA even slightly better. So, I hope India pulls its socks up. I fully expected India to be overconfident or cavalier in this match thinking they are much better and that is exactly what happened.

And while we are at it, my XI for the next match:

Rahul, Mayank, Panchal, Iyer, Vihari, Pant, Ashwin, Thakur, Shami, Bumrah, Siraj/Ishant.

If we want to strengthen the batting, bring Kohli in for Thakur or Ashwin depending upon the pitch.


SaniaFan
Member
Member
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:20 pm

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by SaniaFan »

Actually on the evidence of last 12 month, bringing Kohli for Ashwin does not improve batting much but we lose out on a bowling option. So I think Ashwin would be fine. Instead of Kohli may be we can play Gill.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

:-) True. I keep forgetting. Vihari for Ashwin also perhaps does not improve the batting. It may be that Mayank, Panchal, Iyer, Vihari cannot cut it either but we will never know if we do not try. Trying the ones that are repeatedly failing is of no use. The others cannot be much worse. What I like of Ashwin is he is a very astute reader of the game and a deep thinker. I would love to see him as a coach after a few years when he retires.

Get the bums out. Or get Chetan Sharma out and get someone in who will rebuild the batting lineup. We cannot waste this bowling high.


User avatar
Atithee
Member
Member
Posts: 4720
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:14 pm

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by Atithee »

What’s Vihari done? He had so many opportunities to show his value, but he rarely did much since that Australia match. As I reminded earlier, his india A tour returns weren’t screaming either. And, it seems he doesn’t bowl either now. It’s as knee jerk an inclusion as the cry to drop the incumbents. Iyer should play before it’s too late.


SaniaFan
Member
Member
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:20 pm

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by SaniaFan »

Playing Vihari may be knee jerk but cry for dropping the incumbents is not. If anything it shows timid leadership at all levels in Indian cricket.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

Atithee wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:10 am What’s Vihari done? He had so many opportunities to show his value, but he rarely did much since that Australia match. As I reminded earlier, his india A tour returns weren’t screaming either. And, it seems he doesn’t bowl either now. It’s as knee jerk an inclusion as the cry to drop the incumbents. Iyer should play before it’s too late.
Vihari has saved us a match and a series in Australia. More than what our middle-order tailenders have. I am fine dropping him after this series if he cannot cut it, and bringing in the next in line. However, he has done better than the incumbents in tests in the last year or three --- did not check the exact numbers. But, for me, it is about standards. These guys have been sub-standard for a long time. I cannot remember any old player having such slumps and then coming back to be glorious without being dropped. They need to be dropped. He did fine in the A-tour before this I think. Nobody is screaming because they have not been given the chance. You could say the same about Iyer. When Iyer was given a chance, he played well. After this series, let us go with:

Shaw, Rahul, Iyer, Rohit, x, Pant

x is the next MO bat in line. Gill also has not done much but maybe he gets one more series. If Vihari succeeds in this series then he gets x. We need a few more too. Choosing SAY for tests because of his IPL exploits is dumb. Who is our next gen MO bat? But, if there is nobody, then I would still like SAY to the oldies. On principle. You do not score, you do not play. It's that simple.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

God bowled very well today.

Wrt Vihari v. Ashwin, the results from I1 is Ashwin is useless as a bowler on these pitches at least in I1 but his batting is arguably no worse than Vihari's unfortunately (for Vihari as a specialist bat :-(). As I had called. I think the pitch has some browning and cracks on one side. If India can bat well and long, then Ashwin may get something. Again, I am not criticising Ashwin's bowling per se except saying that this pitch and these pitches have nothing for the spinners who do not spin the ball that much. Not possible for him to get wickets. Rahul read it well and gave him 10 overs only. He went at 3.1 rpo. Vihari may have gone 4-5 runs more in 10 overs. Anyway, here's hoping everyone performs very well in I2 and we can erase the deficit of 27 and get a 320 on board. Rooting for the tailenders in the MO and the end order.

Shot selection has to be emphasized along with leaving things outside off (except when totally hittable, i.e., really wide).


User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 35996
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: New Delhi / Kolkata

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by PKBasu »

Good to see Pujara playing positively today (he's even pulling out an instinctive pull/hook whenever bowlers bounce him) and it's paid off so far. 26* off 33 balls. India lead by 48.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

Excellent job by the Indian batsmen in Pujara and Rahane today. They got it right. You cannot just stay at this wicket. If the ball is there to be hit, hit it. Instead of leaving it alone. You will look ugly when you get out but so be it. This is but just an hour they played. They need to repeat this and not get out for one full session if they want to drag India and their careers out of the doldrum. The longer India can bat, the longer Siraj gets to rest and maybe the wicket will develop something for Ashwin. There was one ball from Maharaj that spun a bit in the last over. So, maybe there is some hope for Ashwin in I4. Go India!

If the ball is there to drive, drive. Don't think that every drive is risky. It is. But, so is a defensive shot when the ball is bouncing inconsistently. Score the runs. Good thinking by the team.

Too bad that Siraj got hurt. But, even before that, he was a cut below Bumrah and Shami and not really *that* effective. He has had a catch here and there dropped off him but so has everyone else. He seems to fail to get things going with the older ball. Now with his fitness problems --- not an external injury --- maybe we can consider Ishat or Umesh for T3? It is a tad harsh on Siraj, who has had a phenomenal start to his career but maybe we will need every ounce of advantage we can get from our XI for the last match?

But today, there are only three words: Tiger Lord-of-Men God !!!


indiansportsfan
Member
Member
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 10:02 pm

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by indiansportsfan »

x should be Paddikal or Ruturaj IMO. Both need to be given chances asap at the A level and also in ODIs starting XI as well. In absence of A matches, at least ODI performance will tell us whether they are made for the highest level.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

Yep, just like it told us Yuvraj Singh is a test player.

Ruturaj Gaikwad should be nowhere near the test team. He has a poor FC record. I do not recall any Indian batsman who averages less than 50 in domestics really making it in test cricket in the modern times. Ruturaj cannot break 45. Nor can he break 40. Over 35 innings. This record is possibly worse than Saha's and he is a keeper. In other words, Ruturaj has been crap in FC cricket. I'd rather live with SAY, who is a distinctly better batsman in the long format. Let Ruturaj learn to bat in the long game and then he should be even considered for the A-team.

Padikkal is even worse. He has been totally crappy. He has been just marginally better than Jayant Yadav with the bat in FC cricket. Again, let them score some runs in the FC arena and then we can consider them.

Pushing IPL and ODI stars into test cricket has never worked without a body of FC cricket work. I doubt it will start working now with these two who cannot really bat in the long format.

My preference would be to try Sarfaraz and someone else PKB mentioned. Then SKY. Give them 15 innings each at least. Then, let us see.


User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 16391
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by prasen9 »

Atithee asked why Vihari. Because he did pretty well in the A-team tour. Among our batters, Sarfaraz averaged 84, Vihari averaged 75, Kishan 70 were superb. Which also meant that the South Africans gave us batting pitches and not the ones they are giving us now. Then, the next lot was Easwaran 41, Panchal 40, Shaw 30. Padikkal 11.5. God knows why he is even in the A-team with such a poor record. Anyway, Kohli does not trust Easwaran and will not play him as evidenced in England. Shaw did not do himself any favor. And, so Panchal got in as the backup opener. Which is fine by me, imho.


indiansportsfan
Member
Member
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 10:02 pm

Re: India in South Africa, 2021-22

Post by indiansportsfan »

Paddikal was still the highest run scorer for star-studded Karnataka in 2019-20 Ranji season and had highest average as well. It could well be that all of Karnataka's matches were played on bowler-friendly surfaces. (So you can't just go blindly by stats, you have to see match situation, pitch quality as well) Also there have been no Ranji matches since then, and he might have improved.

Coming to point of success in T20/ODI not translating to success in Tests, I see no reason why it shouldn't unless there are technical flaws that are not addressed. I think there were clear flaws in Yuvraj's technique that he did not work on. If we don't give him the chance now, he may have to wait really long just like Rohit had to. Also I don't think Panchal, Eeswaran etc are cut out for international success. In any case, their latest Ranji stats are much worse than Paddikal's.