Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

[Atithee]

That’s not a fair comparison, Rajit. If Jadeja reaches those levels, despite being a fourth choice bowler and thrust into mostly difficult situations to bat, he’ll be way ahead of Kapil. This is similar to eulogization of Ganguly. It was the aggression he brought that changed the mindset but we are not comparing impact on national psyche here, we are comparing numbers. Regardless, Kapil is peerless and will remain a luminary.

[SaniaFan]

I think its not abour number of otherwise. We are comparing am incomplete career with a complete one. I think it will not give the lasting result. We should do such comparisons when the both are nearing the end of their career. In this case Jadeja still has long way to go to have a meaningful comparison.

[rajitghosh]

I think high time this thread is closed. If rumours are to be believed Jadeja is going to retire from tests to prolong his white ball career. Kapil Dev on the other hand never missed a test due to injury. The only time he was dropped the captain was pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes. When Jadeja gets dropped I don't think anyone bothers. When he plays in tests abroad people wonder why he was selected ahead of Ashwin.

[Kumar]

Appears to be a rumour! I don’t think his injuries have been soft tissue, hopefully he can get over the bad luck and be available for the home series in india.

[stumpsandbail]

I do Agree 100% with PKB on this one.

[prasen9]

I think the important, key word is "test" [all rounder]. By virtue of that word, we are not taking into account their ODI performance, World Cup wins, etc. just as when we say best batsman, we do not take into account their potential bowling prowess. Test all rounder != (not equals) all rounder. In tests, Jadeja seems to be the better batsman and certainly better bowler at home and so much better at home, etc. that overall a better bowler, imho. There is no doubt that Kapil is our best test pace-bowling all-rounder ever. And, the impact of that is perhaps more because pacers can have an impact both home and abroad whereas spinners are very limited when they have to play in places such as RSA, some grounds in England early in the season, Hobart may be, etc. where spin is (or used to be) rather useless.

[SaniaFan]

Also Kapil was playing every match home and abroad where as Jadeja mostly plays in the conditions that are favorable to spin. So naturally his record would be better. In my opinion there is no comparison.

[prasen9]

Jadeja has often been the lone spinner abroad. So, he does play but maybe that is in the last 2-3 years but before that he was vying with Ashwin and Kuldeep. Anyway, we can adjust for that.

Batting: Jadeja: Home 38, Abroad 30. Kapil: Home 37, Abroad 26. Ashwin: Home 29, Abroad 26.
Bowling: Jadeja: Home 21, Abroad 33.5. Kapil: Home 26.5, Abroad 33. Ashwin: Home 21.4, Abroad 31.4.

[Interestingly, with Ashwin thrown in the mix, he is about the same bat as Kapil abroad but distinctly poorer at home. With the ball, Ashwin is much better than Kapil both at home and abroad. So the comp gets more messy.]

People can wonder why Jadeja is selected abroad before Ashwin is because he bats better abroad. The team obviously wanted to strengthen the poor batting we have seen in the last 2-3 years.

If you go by the performance on the field and the bottomline, it is hard to see how Kapil performed better than Jadeja and even if we adjust Jadeja's number by giving him the same number of home and abroad games like Kapil played, he will still come out ahead of Kapil.

Jadeja is just slightly worse abroad wrt bowling and distinctly better in India. Wrt batting, Jadeja is slightly better at home and distinctly better abroad.

We think Jadeja's bowling is not that great abroad but Kapil's is because of the comparables. Jadeja is competing with Ashwin, Bumrah, Shami, Bhuvi, etc. all-time great Indian bowlers. Kapil was bowling alongside so-so players. This is sort of what I said. Srinath would be in and out of this team just based on his bowling because he would have been a #3 bowler at best. He looked awesome because he was surrounded by a passable Prasad and a bunch of idiots.

Kapil was not that much better abroad with the ball. Now, if you say that Jadeja did not play early in his career regularly abroad and that makes his abroad numbers better, then we have to go in and slice and dice more. I can do that but my gut feeling is that he was not much worse. Jadeja has bowled very well in Australia, India, South Africa, Sri Lanka and West Indies. He has performed poorly in England and New Zealand. A few more matches there would not have changed his numbers much and I do not know if he was actually not played in any of the tours to these two countries.

Before someone brings in the World Cup, captaincy, etc. again, I am only talking about tests and as an all-rounder on the field. Both were very good fielders but I sort of think that Jadeja is the better fielder by a hair. That may be recency bias.

But, like you said, let us see these two finish their careers. Maybe things will change.

[SaniaFan]

My point is that Kapil only missed 1 match during his entire career. While Jadeja was dropped many times. If he had played all those matches his record would have been worse that what it is now.
And other thing is that his average of 21 in home matches is really exceptional but then Axar Patel also has a great average(I did not check but he must be having) at home due to some tailor made pitches
I don't recall any tailor made conditions to help Kapil.
Also not having other good bowlers is likely to increase the number of wickets one takes but I don't think it would improve the average. On the contrary it would negatively impact the average because the batsmen will try to play cautiously as they know that other bowlers are not good.

[prasen9]

My point is that Kapil only missed 1 match during his entire career. While Jadeja was dropped many times. If he had played all those matches his record would have been worse that what it is now.

And my point is that he was dropped because the team now is much stronger and he has better competitors. Given the breakdown of the numbers, Kapil's overseas bowling numbers are the only thing that is better for him by 33.5 to 33. If Jadeja had a few more games in New Zealand and England, his numbers would go to 34.5 or 35 at max. If it was elsewhere, Jadeja's bowling average would actually go down wrt his bowling numbers assuming similar performance in those countries. Anyway, the batting number difference is big abroad a -4 for Kapil. You would have to put in about 20 matches in NZ and 20 matches in England to perhaps bring Jadeja to a -4 wrt bowling. Now you may say that a -1 in bowling is equal to -4 in batting and there is some truth to bowling differences being more important because you are taking about 3-4 wickets a match on average and batting two times. But, who knows. I think using numbers we cannot really say Kapil was better. Using other things you talk about below, perhaps.

And other thing is that his average of 21 in home matches is really exceptional but then Axar Patel also has a great average(I did not check but he must be having) at home due to some tailor made pitches
I don't recall any tailor made conditions to help Kapil.
Also not having other good bowlers is likely to increase the number of wickets one takes but I don't think it would improve the average. On the contrary it would negatively impact the average because the batsmen will try to play cautiously as they know that other bowlers are not good.

These last points are valid. However, we can never equalize for these without doing huge amounts of normalization and large-scale calculations and even then it will be projections.

So at the end, it is apples and oranges. You can also say that batsmen play more shots now, the DRS system, etc. We can't make those equal. But, one can say the other side too. If you are the only strike bowler, then batsmen are not hitting you and so you do not give away runs and so your average is lower when you bowl a ball with the batsman's number written on it. You also get a lot of tailenders because the others are not that good.

I think the wickets in India are a lot more bowling friendly now than before and that contributes to the 21 average at home. But, it is what it is. We cannot change that. I am going by the performances we have seen. What it would be if both had equal conditions, who knows.

[SaniaFan]

So Indian team is so strong that its greatest all-rounder does not find place in it regularly!!
My limited argument is that because he is not very good so he does not find place in Indian team always. Great players are not dropped like that. Since we are talking about spin, someone like warne or murali would always play. Now jadeja has better average than them(Warne for sure) but still he is dispensable. So numbers apart, this fact does not allow my mind to see him as greatest. That is the only thing. But it is just me. These things are basically based on what majority thinks.
PS: I checked and Jadeja has better average than Warne only. Murali has better average.

[prasen9]

So Indian team is so strong that its greatest all-rounder does not find place in it regularly!!

Absolutely. If the difference between the greatest allrounder and the second best allrounder is small, then one of them finds a place when we go abroad. Jadeja has been in competition with Ashwin, whose numbers I have provided above. When we need a bowling all-rounder Ashwin finds a place abroad. When we need a batting allrounder, we play Jadeja. I do not know if Kapil's competitors were Ashwin quality, who arguably may be among our top-3 allrounders. Or top-5.

My limited argument is that because he is not very good so he does not find place in Indian team always. Great players are not dropped like that. Since we are talking about spin, someone like warne or murali would always play. Now jadeja has better average than them(Warne for sure) but still he is dispensable. So numbers apart, this fact does not allow my mind to see him as greatest. That is the only thing. But it is just me. These things are basically based on what majority thinks.
PS: I checked and Jadeja has better average than Warne only. Murali has better average.

Jadeja has a very distinct home-away split. Warne or Murali do not have that as much I think. Jadeja is never ever dropped at home but his bowling is not that great abroad. Kapil's bowling was also not very great abroad but we did not have any alternatives then. If we had Bumrah, Shami, Ishant (in his good years), then Kapil's bowling would have been superfluous. But because we did not have anyone abroad, Kapil was always in the team.

Also, structurally, it is different between a spinner and a pace bowler. When we tour abroad, we play three pacers. So for Kapil not to be in the team he would have to have been pacer #4. For Jadeja not to be in the team, he just has to be the #2 spinner (and not make up for his deficiency with the bat). In places like South Africa, you do not even need a spinner on some grounds. So that is not a fair comparison as to whether someone was ever dropped or not.

That said, I do think Jadeja's home numbers are because of better pitches these days. We seldom have dead pitches in India anymore.

[SaniaFan]

Actually to be fair my statement that there is no comparison, is not correct. It is close. I did not know that his away record is that good. Always knew of his home record.

[PKBasu]

Malcolm Marshall is widely regarded as the greatest fast bowler of the past 50 years, if not of all time. Yet, after his first couple of series, Marshall was dropped from the side for 2 years. I saw him play his first series (against India in 1979); he was raw, but already a pretty fearsome, if wayward, bowler. The following summer, he took 15 wickets in 4 tests against England, but was still left out of the side for the next couple of years. In the home series against England in 1981, Marshall played only the last test, but WI preferred Roberts, Holding, Croft, Garner over him for the other four tests; he later got to play because Croft and Sylvester Clarke chose to go to South Africa and got banned. In the end, when posterity looks back at his spectacular record, the fact that he couldn't make the team for 2 years is irrelevant.

Kapil Dev was the best bowler in India in his time, but he would struggle to make the side as a bowler in the current Indian TEST side (although he would certainly make it in as an allrounder, i.e., fifth bowler). Binny, Madanlal and Chetan Sharma would certainly not make the current Indian test side. So the fact that Jadeja is sometimes left out of the Indian XI outside India doesn't detract from his all-round record. He is part of a great bowling side, but he and Ashwin are the best of the bowlers India has (especially at home). Plus he is a solid batsman, consistently better than Kapil Dev in tests (but NOT in ODIs, which are not part of this thread anyway!!).

[prasen9]

The problem is that Jadeja now is much different than Jadeja in his early years. He was a lot more cavalier with his batting before. That is why he was not a certainty then. Now he is. So, maybe Jadeja was not India's best-ever class at the first part of his career but now he is right in the middle of things. He had the best away batting record in the last 3 years or so but that is because our MO was totally shambolic in these years.

But, I think as SaniaFan said we need to wait for the career to be over. Because, Indian players almost always overstay (Gavaskar excluded) and then have to be kicked out after performing badly for a few years. Maybe Jadeja will also be in that boat because Ashwin, with his increased age and reduced fitness will go earlier. Maybe Axar can kick Jadeja out of the team but the selectors will keep selecting an old and ineffective Jadeja if what they are doing now and did it when SRT, Dravid, Laxman were playing badly is any indication. If that happens, Jadeja's numbers will get worse. Kapil's numbers did get a bit worse in the last year or two too. So, maybe we wait and compare then.