Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

After 62 tests, Jadeja has 259 wickets at an average of 23.82 runs/wicket -- better than Warne (avg 25.41) and Ashwin (23.98). Bishan Bedi had 266 wickets in 67 tests at 28.71 runs/wicket. Bedi averaged 23.99 at home, and 33.72 away. Jadeja averages 19.81 at home and 34.50 away. He is India's best-ever bowler in home conditions (among bowlers who have taken more than 50 test wickets). Ashwin averages 20.85 runs/wicket at home.
And, with a batting average of 36.88, Jadeja remains by far India's best-ever test all-rounder.

Interestingly, Jadeja has always been under-estimated and under-appreciated by the cricket fraternity (Sanjay Manjrekar merely being the most egregious). Since he was such a good batsman in domestic cricket (3 Ranji triple centuries...), he was thought of as a batting all-rounder, whereas in tests he has always been a bowling all-rounder -- with his batting developing only later in his test career. He always goes under the radar as a bowler, but this Delhi test saw him produce his best-ever bowling figures (7/42, and I saw his magic at close quarters from the enclosure just above the commentary box at the Kotla; he also ended with his best match figures of 10/110). So the Australians prepared elaborately for Ashwin, but it was Jadeja who has got most of their wickets -- 18 in the two tests so far!
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by VReddy »

Agree with your views, PKB.

My only point is its unfair to make generational comparisons. The game has swung big time towards bowlers with the advent of DRS. When I was watching Cricket during the Kumble / Warne era - LBWs used to be given only when the ball was hitting the middle of middle. Pad first then bat were hardly appealed for. The pitches also were made docile and were prepared for results on the 5th day - now what the spinners were hoping for on the 4th/5th day in the past, is available from the 1st day itself, in India.

Anil Kumble with his wicket to wicket bowling and all his variations - he would have been lethal in this day and age bowling tracks and with DRS.

I feel a more apt comparison would be: what were the wickets / runs average in that era for their team / top teams and how do these spinners compare against that.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by prasen9 »

In general, I agree. But, wrt allrounders, you would think it evens out right? Because they have to both bowl and bat. If his bowling figures are inflated, then by batting on the same wicket, his batting figures are deflated. He is the best batsman in tests among all our allrounders ever. That means he would have averaged in the 40s in the bygone eras.

We should normalize with era-averages but that is too much work for arm-chair people like us. :-)
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by VReddy »

Yes agree. I always felt if India had groomed him as a no. 4 bat, he would have over time become one of India's prolific batsman as he has sound defense both against pace and spin.

So in that sense, he has the skill to be your top 3 player with both bat and ball.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

Jaddu is having an excellent World Cup, and he should have been MoM in the Eden Gardens match vs SA (29* off 15 balls; 5/33 with the ball).

Ricky Ponting, in commentary, called him one of the greatest fielders of all time. Quite appropriately!

I rate Jadeja as India’s greatest test allrounder ever, but quite a bit behind Kapil Dev in ODIs — although perhaps the second best ODI allrounder in India’s history. Jadeja’s batting average in ODIs is nearly 10 runs/innings better than Kapil, but the latter had that defining 175* when it really mattered — and also had a strike rate of 95+ (vs Jadeja’s 85+). As a bowler, Kapil (avg 27.45, economy rate 3.71) is well ahead of Jadeja (avg 35.59, economy rate 4.87, although Jadeja played in an era in which the rules were more skewed in favour of batsmen). And it’s impossible to put numbers to the fielding — but Jaddu is an electrifying fielder, which adds to his value for the side. So one of our best ODI allrounders, but slightly below being considered one of the best of all time in ODIs.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by prasen9 »

And, Kapil was an excellent fielder too. I think both Jaddu and Kapil are natural athletes. So, they perform multiple skills well. Kapil was not so bad in golf later on I think. Leander was an excellent footballer. And, the South African preppies such as De Villiers, etc. often are quite good in multiple sports. I think there were people who were great in field hockey and then cricket. Will need to fish that out. Or were they from Zimbabwe?

The other name that comes to mind is Yuvraj Singh. Of course, we have to calibrate the runs/over and averages by the averages of their contemporaries. How would Yuvraj compare in your mind PKB? Another natural athlete, excellent fielder, great ODI bat, and a very capable bowler.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by Kumar »

Jadeja is a way better batsman than Kapil, but clutch factor is so much more for Kapil. Seems like wow moments were lot more for Kapil compared to Jadeja. I think they are very close in Test, but in ODI jadeja is probably not even in top 3 . I would rate sachin higher than Jadeja and potentially Yuvraj singh is in the mix.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

I don't think Yuvi, Sachin and Sourav can really be considered all-rounders. They were batting all-rounders, but their bowling barely delivered 1 wicket in every 3 ODIs, which meant that they weren't genuine bowling options -- usually used as 6th bowler, only very occasionally front-line ones (Yuvi at home, Sourav in swinging conditions like England, NZ, Canada). Of course, Yuvraj Singh was Man of the Tournament in the World Cup victory of 2011, which puts him on a special pedestal (in a tournament where he was a genuine allrounder, since his spin bowling wasn't so innocuous in home conditions).

Yuvi took 111 wickets in 304 ODIs, at 38.68 apiece, and an economy rate of 5.1.
Sachin took 154 wickets in 463 ODIs at 44.48 apiece at an economy rate of 5.1.
Sourav took 100 wickets in 311 ODIs at 38.49 apiece at an economy rate of 5.06.

So Sourav was a marginally better bowler (over the course of a full career) than the other two, and arguably a better batsman than Yuvi. So Sachin and Sourav were the better batting allrounders, although Yuvi made a truly massive impact in the World Cup triumph of 2011 as an all-rounder.

If there is a competitor for Jadeja as second-best allrounder in ODIs, it is Irfan Pathan -- but the latter's career was too short. He had 173 wickets in 120 ODIs at 29.72 apiece and an economy rate of 5.26. With the bat, he averaged 23.29 per completed innings, at a strike rate of 79.54 -- well behind Jadeja as allrounder (since Jaddu's batting average is 10 runs better, at a better strike rate, while his bowling average is worse, but economy rate much better).

So, to put them all into a single post, here are Kapil's and Jaddu's numbers:
Kapil: 253 wickets in 225 ODIs at 27.45 apiece, and economy of 3.71. Batting average 23.79 and strike rate 95.07
Jaddu: 218 wickets in 194 ODIs at 35.69 and economy of 4.87. Batting average 32.7 and strike rate 85.36
Yuvi: 111 wickets in 304 ODIs, at 38.68 apiece, and an economy rate of 5.1. Batting average 36.55 and strike rate 87.67
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by Kumar »

Well the problem comparing a batting allrounder with bowling allrounder is that bowling averages for batting Allrounders always get inflated when they bowl 3-4 overs. While later order batsman tend to get their averages inflated due to not outs. jadeja has 47 not outs.

When u bring those stats comparison, u have ignored per game average for Jadeja which is 14 runs and per batting innings average of 22 runs.

Name a memorable batting innings from Jadeja when he took us to victory from a desperate position. Even in that 2019 semis, he bought it close, but could not deliver. sachin bowled India to win defending 5 runs in a last over in a semifinals.

There is no signature performance for Jadeja as batsman . He was hardly promoted up in the order playing bulk of his innings at 7 and then 8.

During his career, there have been 133 bowlers that have bowled at least in 50 innings and Jadeja ranks 95 just above Yuvraj singh who averaged 35.96 in 82 ODI games. On ER he ranks around 40th.

I just realized that we missed Pandya. He has batting average of 34 and bowling average of 34. I would rate him higher as a allrounder than Jadeja.

List of allrounders during Jadeja’s career that bowled more than 50 innings and batted 50 innings with batting average greater than 30

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... e=allround
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by Atithee »

Numbers don’t always tell the whole story. At least the numbers need to be normalized to average team score in their respective era. That Jadeja scores so many runs so down the order tells he is probably batting when top order has faltered. He doesn’t get to bat in early power plays. Other way to look at Jadeja is that he has likely almost always completed his quota of ten overs in every completed innings.

Ground sizes, home and away, DRS, advent of T20, non-stop multi format matches, …. There are too many factors to consider. Each had their own value and it is not possible to rank them. Just enjoy their performances as they occur.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by Kumar »

Wellwhen u call him the second best allrounder for india in ODI. We have to see if numbers really reflect that situation. Also, there is also fan in making such arguments. And our biases also add spices to this arguments.

If u are strictly looking at averages, this is list of indian all rounders ordered by difference between their batting and bowling average. List of indian players have bowled at least 50 innings and batted at least 50 innings.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... e=allround

Using this format, Kapildev is actually outside top 5 and Ganguly has the best numbers. Top 5 are Ganguly, Tendulkar, Pandya, Yuvraj Singh and Jadeja.
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Re: Ravindra Jadeja: India's best-ever test all-rounder

Post by PKBasu »

After 70 tests, Jaddu now has 3005 test runs at a batting average of 37.09, and 287 test wickets at an average of 24.14 apiece. One of India's greatest test bowlers ever by the numbers, with 3000+ runs as well (including 4 centuries). A year ago, he bowled India to victory at the Kotla against Australia (I was there) and now he has done it with bat and ball against England at Rajkot. Man of the Match on both occasions exactly a year apart.
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