Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

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VReddy
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by VReddy »

While I am harsh at Shankar, I do think this is one match and one innings. As it is on the other side with Karthik. I do think Shankar needs more experience batting under such conditions. He was shuffling in and then taking a huge heave ball after ball to Fiz. What he should have done is tried different things. Walk up for one ball and back for another and that does come with experience. Hope he learns from this. Shankar has to go back to the domestics and play good innings at the IPL and bowl well and earn more chances. At this point, I think a fit Pandya is better than him, though Pandya himself has to improve.
Shankar will be a better batsman than Pandya. Pandya will be the better bowler. Given the current state of India, Pandya will be the need for us atleast in EARN. Lets not forget, Shankar has won few matches for SRH with his batting in the last year IPL and has been a solid limited overs player for TN
Ditto with Karthik.
Disagree but since we are not going by stats, each to his opinion.
I think Parthiv and Uthappa won us one-off matches with great performances in England.
Parthiv is a solid batsman but not a hitter like DK/Dhoni. The problem with Parthiv is he is India's Kamran Akmal. Uthappa was a bit like Manish Pandey but never scored the truckload of runs needed in domestics to keep being in the reckoning and bide his time



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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by prasen9 »

VReddy wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:24 pm
Ditto with Karthik.
Disagree but since we are not going by stats, each to his opinion.
If we want to go by stats, let us go by stats. The "Ditto with Karthik" if read in context means Karthik needs to improve. Your opinion is that Karthik is a hitter; so be it. But the stats shows that in the last two years, he has batted at a SR of 69.84. If you think he does not need to improve, it is your opinion and not backed by any reasonable stats that tells us what is required to be successful as an ODI bat. This is over a small sample size, i.e., seven innings with 4 not outs. Nevertheless, I stand by my comment that he needs to improve over this performance in the eight ODIs he played in the last two years. Had he played at a much faster rate, he would have made the #5 or #6 position his by now. The problem with Manish and Karthik have been (in the small sample size) that some days they just do not fire. See Manish today. But, Manish has played superb innings at a high SR before. I hope both improve on their consistency wrt the SR. We need that of lower order batsmen.

In T20Is, he has been a clear success.

I have said above I would like to see Karthik given a run at being the ODI wk given his innings today and in performance in T20Is.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by Sin Hombre »

I think he was referring to T20s and not ODIs - Karthik has outperformed Dhoni in the former in recent times.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by prasen9 »

VReddy wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:40 pm He did very well as our opener in 2007 in England. He played as a batsman then when he wasn't even the same batsman as he is now. He never played in AUS/NZ right, so isn't it unfair to bucket him like that. On the other hand, he is an amazing cutter and puller - I would infact do the reverse - DK in EARN and Saha in Asian conditions
If we are comparing batting, DK is superior to Saha. But, he was inadequate as a keeper and that is why we have Saha. I do not know if his keeping has improved.
I remember back in 2013 (?), he scored 2 back-to-back centuries against WI / AUS in England in the warm up matches before the Champions Trophy. He didn't get much of an opportunity in the main matches then. So he has definately proved himself in English conditions.
Dinesh Karthik has got 79 ODIs and scored at under 30 at a SR of 72.79. That is who he is. I am so glad that he was not played at the Champions Trophy. His record in England in ODIs is even more stellar. 22.33 at 74.03. Thank god that the selectors did not give him an opportunity. It was terribly unfair to other deserving candidates that the got all these chances ahead of other more deserving players.

Karthik can be played now to determine if his batting in ODIs has improved and if he can keep safely. If it has, then he can replace Dhoni as the keeper or play as a batsman.
Last edited by prasen9 on Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by prasen9 »

Since you asked for stats, here it is. The only two players who averaged below Karthik while playing 79 or more games for India (in 24 of which he kept wickets) who were batsmen were Srikkanth and Shastri. That is it. After these two Karthik has been the worst bat ever to have been given 79 games. The only way to play such a poor batsman is if he can contribute in other ways. Shastri made up some by his bowling. Karthik has to make his deficiency with the bat by his keeping. But, the keeping spot was blocked by Dhoni. He did not deserve to play as a specialist bat in ODIs.

We will see if he has improved.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by VReddy »

Prasen - I think lets go by point-by-point.
His batting under trying conditions has been pedestrian. I don't think he can bat well in tests in the EARN countries where the ball moves or bounces. So, I'd rather get Saha as the keeper. I don't mind taking him as a second keeper and throwing him in to bat in trying conditions in FC cricket abroad. If he shows, he can handle it, then we can try him.
My debate started with the above point of yours. His test average in England + South Africa + New Zealand is 46 spread across 9 innings, all as an opener. His average outside of EARN is 22. This was when he was inferior as a batsman than now. So if at all any place he will do well in tests, then he has done it in EARN.

Some of the other points in your responses later
1. |DK not good enough to be there as a batsman alone| Agree, Dinesh Karthik by batting itself is not good enough to be slotted. He has improved but his current batting capability imo is similar to Raina. Raina is able to be in the mix because he offers bowling. Unfortunately, Dinesh doesn't bowl and so difficult to slot him in on batting alone
2. |If we are comparing batting, DK is superior to Saha. But, he was inadequate as a keeper and that is why we have Saha. I do not know if his keeping has improved.| Agree. To call out, Karthik is much better than Parthiv but not as solid as Saha. In abroad conditions, I would go with Karthik while in Asian conditions, Saha but its all debateable. If Karthik is chosen as backup keeper to Saha, he will get his opportunity in one of the tests in England/AUS as I expect Saha to struggle with the bat, so Karthik's performance there will prove whether he is much improved or not.
3.| Karthik can be played now to determine if his batting in ODIs has improved and if he can keep safely. If it has, then he can replace Dhoni as the keeper or play as a batsman.| Ditto, agree
4. |The "Ditto with Karthik" if read in context means Karthik needs to improve. Your opinion is that Karthik is a hitter; so be it. But the stats shows that in the last two years, he has batted at a SR of 69.84. If you think he does not need to improve, it is your opinion and not backed by any reasonable stats that tells us what is required to be successful as an ODI bat. This is over a small sample size, i.e., seven innings with 4 not outs. | I believe Karthik has done enough for the last 3 years in Domestic across all formats, that he doesn't need to do anything more in domestic cricket to warrant a spot in the team (more as the #2 WK across all formats.. with opportunity given whenever primary keeper takes a break. Incase DK takes it, then he should become #1. Regarding his strike rate, it depends on the situation of the player and the state of a match. For Karthik, every match could be his last due to lack of secondary skill (with keeping being void). So if India is in a comfortable state, he is likely to play slow/percentage cricket similar to any other player.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by prasen9 »

I think we largely agree on everything. Except his being a "proven" commodity in EARN. He does average 46.25 but that is over 8 completed innings. That is too small a sample size. It shows he can bat but we need to find out if he can bat there consistently. I too am not too sure about Saha's batting abilities. We missed a chance to see if DK's keeping has improved. My impression is that he is safe in ODIs and T20Is, where the cost of a missed catch cannot be 200 runs but in tests, it can be. My perception was that his keeping is closer to Parthiv's than Saha's. Can our bowling attack, weaker than the host countries in EARN conditions usually, afford to get more than 20 wickets for some more runs? If the runs are substantial, that may be a risk worth taking. Anyway, given that no other keeper is really breaking down the door, I am all for taking him as the #2 keeper, watching him play in 1-2 tour matches under good bowling and trying conditions and then making the switch with Saha on an experimental basis. I think I am more skeptic but you are more sure that he will succeed (keeping-wise) in EARN countries.

Rest Dhoni and play him for ODIs and T20Is. This, we agree. In T20Is, we could even play him as a batsman and try to give Pant a longer run. In ODIs, we could try him as a specialist bat too after we give Iyer, Kedar and Manish a few more series. My batting lineup would be: Dhawan, Rohit, Kohli, Iyer, Dhoni, Kedar, Hardik with Manish as backup. If Iyer and Kedar fail and Manish cannot grab it too, we can go back to Raina and Karthik. Or if Dhoni fails, we can go to Karthik. Kedar possibly needs to be replaced by Raina if we do not have to try another youngster because we need a sixth bowler. Karthik at Iyer's spot with Dhoni moving one slot up is doable.

[It has been a pleasure debating you. Sometimes, I get frustrated debating on this forum but in this case, we examined things point by point and identified where our commonalities and differences are. Thanks for engaging.]
Last edited by prasen9 on Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by VReddy »

Agree with you on all your points. In general, I enjoy your posts as you are data driven - thanks!

I agree with your past points about Naman Ojha too - he had a golden couple of years, I wish he got more opportunities especially after he did well in the only test he played. However, I think he is past it in the past 2 years.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by PKBasu »

DK didn't concede any byes in the Nidahas Cup final, which suggests that his 'keeping has improved. He used to leak byes in the past.
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Re: Nidahas Cup, (I-SL-B) T20I Tournament, 2018

Post by prasen9 »

Excellent!
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