India in England, 2018

[Atithee]

IPL is a strawman.

I’m sorry; I don’t know what this means. Are you saying we were always bad so IPL has played no role in our continued failures despite lot more money and domination of administrative bodies of world cricket?

[prasen9]

In the meantime, in Bengaluru against the RSA-A new ball bowlers, PP Shaw 16 and Mayank Agarwal 0. The grass is always greener on the other side. We just don't have good batsmen who can handle swing. We have to figure out those who are mentally strong and can play in a disciplined manner and make the most of whatever skills they have.

[sameerph]

We are all blaming it on our batsmen who cannot handle swing. But, English top order batsmen have not done much better against our bowers. They have done slightly better than our batsmen because our fast bowers are nowhere as good as England. Anderson,Broad,Curren,Woakes and Stokes are way superior than Ishant,Shami and Umesh. If we had Bhuvi and Bumrah available, the result of the first test could have been different and second test could have been closer. So, it is as much about weaker bowling as bad batting.

[prasen9]

Maybe in these conditions. But, Umesh averages 25, Ashwin 27, Ishant 28, and Shami 33. I suppose Shami's ineffectiveness in I2 of T1 lost us the match. However, in T2, whatever our bowlers did, with those few runs, we could not have won. People remember the recent failures more. So, we are blaming the batsmen.

[Atithee]

We have given away too many runs to lower order regularly. This is where our bowlers are to be blamed. It’s a habit we’ve developed although it seems a general malaise that has benefited us on occasions too. But, in the current lot only Ashwin has the wherewithal and nous to handle the batting duties with aplomb. Not only are the opposing bowlers better with the ball, but also with the bat. This is also where our bowlers deserve the blame, even if top order batting performances are similar.

[PKBasu]

In the meantime, in Bengaluru against the RSA-A new ball bowlers, PP Shaw 16 and Mayank Agarwal 0. The grass is always greener on the other side. We just don't have good batsmen who can handle swing. We have to figure out those who are mentally strong and can play in a disciplined manner and make the most of whatever skills they have.

That's a rather convenient use of a single sample! Against the same opponents, South Africa A, Shaw made 136 and Agarwal 220 in the previous match, which India A won by an innings at the same venue!

[prasen9]

Which is exactly my point. In England, we have only had 4 innings. That is a small sample too. As are the two big innings you quoted. We just do not have large data because these guys are inexperienced. Our only hope is our hope. PP Shaw scored 4 in I2 btw. Not that I am happy with this, but to think that the inexperienced Nair, Pant, PP Shaw will turn things around is not realistic. But, we need to invest in the next gen, because this gen will not cut it. I am just trying to keep people realistic.

If Shaw somehow makes it to the team, I would say play him. Drop Vijay, may be.

[PKBasu]

The truly monumental error in the second test was not to have given the ball to Ashwin, our near match-winner in the first test, until England were already 160/5. Ashwin should have bowled to the leftie openers early. And the second monumental error was to have played a second spinner when the weather forecast (correctly) predicted that the match would be rain-soaked. (Lord's does help spinners when dry, but ignoring the weather forecast was silly).

[PKBasu]

Prithwi Shaw averages 60.78 in his 13 first class matches before this one. One the tour of England, he made 0 and 188 (against West Indies A) and 62 and 0 (in the match in which Vijay made 8 and 0 against England A, who included Sam Curran and Chris Woakes). Then the 136 against South Africa A in Bengaluru. To me, there is enough solid promise there to be picked for India now. Of course, if we want to preserve him for the long haul, he should only play in Australia. But he has already shown form on the England tour, so he should be sent back to England now.

[PKBasu]

Karun Nair made 20 & 93; 42 & 55 (in two matches against West Indies A; so he got two chances against them, while most others got one); then 4 & 13 against England A (Curran, Woakes, etc); and 4 in the "practice match" against Essex.

He hasn't made a case for selection against England, because he has failed in the three innings against England bowlers. We definitely have a problem against swing bowling.

[prasen9]

If we pick 4 innings and decide whether someone can play or not, then we can prove anything. Yes, Shaw has an average over 50 but Pujara also has an average near 49 in tests. Runs in India and runs abroad are different. Our batsmen average around 25 in the SANE countries except Kohli and the old Rahane.

I do not care if Nair can play or not. He is the reserve. There is absolutely nothing positive to gain by keeping on playing Pujara. I would rather give that chance to Nair than Pujara. The value of giving it to Nair is more than the zero gain we achieve by playing Pujara.

Shaw is not even in the team. We should not be chopping and changing teams after every 1-2 tests. If there is a genuine need for a replacement, we should send Shaw and play him ahead of Vijay or Dhawan.

I do not think Shaw or Mayank or Vihari or Nair or Pant or whoever we send will perform much better than those who are there. The advantage of sending these youngsters is that when they visit the *next* time or when they go to NZ or Australia, they will tackle the moving ball better. Or we will get some data that they cannot. If we are not going to win, we should build for the future. Kohli was crap when he first visited West Indies and England, if I recall correctly.

[prasen9]

And Mayank scores 28. Again, not arguing against him. Just that scores vary. I would like to go with PP Shaw before Mayank because he is young and giving him a taste of English conditions with real test bowlers (as opposed to WI-A) may be good for him to take. Either he turns out to be another Gavaskar-esque chap -- I doubt it --- or he gets a list of what he needs to do to get better.

[kna]

Just FYI ...

The second India A vs. South Africa A "Test" was played in Alur, not Bengaluru. It is about 200 km west of Bengaluru.

I'm guessing the pitch was different from the Chinnaswamy Stadium. The sky was overcast and there was a strong cross wind for at least part of the match, which helped Duane Olivier, the SA quick.

Alur was probably closer to English conditions than Bengaluru was.

[Sin Hombre]

IPL is a strawman.

I’m sorry; I don’t know what this means. Are you saying we were always bad so IPL has played no role in our continued failures despite lot more money and domination of administrative bodies of world cricket?

Yes.

We are also not dominant administratively at the moment. Money wise, sure, and that has meant we are in the top 3 in every format almost continuously now.

It doesn't teach our players to do well against a swinging red ball.

[Sin Hombre]

The truly monumental error in the second test was not to have given the ball to Ashwin, our near match-winner in the first test, until England were already 160/5. Ashwin should have bowled to the leftie openers early. And the second monumental error was to have played a second spinner when the weather forecast (correctly) predicted that the match would be rain-soaked. (Lord's does help spinners when dry, but ignoring the weather forecast was silly).

Monumental "error" was losing the toss.

We would have competed if the toss had gone in our favour.

In terms of conditions suitable to swing, day 2 >>> day 4 > day 3.

Of course, this means in neutral to both teams swinging conditions, we will lose every time. Unless Bhuvi and Bumrah are fit and firing.