India in West Indies, June-July 2011

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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by jayakris »

D I T T O, with Varma. Jay
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by indiansportsfan »

The frustration is obvious. But we should realize that the team we had in WI was not built to score quickly on unhelpful pitches. Our openers, Dravid and Laxman were never expected to score quickly on any surface. Kohli and Dhoni find it difficult to score on surfaces other than where ball comes on nicely to the bat (flat track players). The only one left was Raina. Once Raina was out there was very little chance. We cannot entrust a tough chase on Bhajji and PK.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Atithee »

I disagree. I contend that this team was loaded with players who can score faster than our traditional team as it had abundance of IPL successes such as Vijay, Kohli, Raina, Dhoni, and Harbhajan (who was used as pinch hitter by Mumbai regularly). Yes, they are not Sehwag or even Gambhir, but if any team had a chance to score quickly, it was this one. Even if the pitch was not conducive to scoring. It wasn't as if asking rate was 8 RPO or something.

Surely, had we tried, not all could have folded in 15 overs that were left. That they did not even try and gave up after Raina was out is what is maddening. If we are so afraid that we cannot last for 15 overs with seven wickets in hand, we should not be aspiring for the top dog spot in the world. And, as I said earlier, it was the intent that meant a lot. England would have heard the message loud and clear. Now we are just paper tigers.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by gbelday »

It was quite frustrating to see them give up on the chase but I think Dhoni and Duncan made an informed decision.
a) Unlike IPL and one day cricket, you don't have fielding restrictions.
b) Negative tactics by Bishoo - bowl on the leg side and place all the fielders that side
c) once Raina was gone, it was our game to lose. If we had lost a few more wickets, WI would have pushed for a win.

Bottom line is we couldn't have won with the players we had in the stipulated time (especially on that track)...
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Varma »

Gautam,

With all due respect, I absolutely do not agree that it was India's game to lose, neither would I think it was an informed decision from Dhoni and Fletcher. The coach's defensive statement claiming that we were not with our "4 top players" is ludicrous, to put in mild words. We are playing West Indies, after all! Add to it the fact that they are playing short of one of their prime bowlers. If we are so sissy about playing this team, imagine what the presence of an in-form Gayle could have done! In all probability, we would have lost 0-3, or at best 1-2. With just 15 overs to go, I would have set a target of 5 overs and 40-50 runs and asked Kohli, Harbhajan and Praveen to go berserk and wreak havoc. If all of them failed to do so and fell within that time frame, it would then be upto Dravid, Laxman and Dhoni to press for a win or play for a draw. No matter how negative the bowling tactics are, if these 3 can't bat out for 10 overs on a benign pitch, I am truly sorry but they are not worth their salt. Because playing for a draw in that situation is totally akin to playing for a series win. That, in my eyes, would have been a well earned series win! I couldn't have cared less that we drew the match and "won" the series, but I think the decision to compromise had put a HUGE dent on Indian pride (if there ever existed any such thing in our ever overrated Indian cricket).

- Varma
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by PKBasu »

I absolutely agree that it was a disgraceful decision. Dhoni is bold in ODI cricket, but he turns defensive once we are world champions in a format -- and that simply doesn't suit him. The other awful defensive decision I cannot forget is the decision to let Ravindra Jadeja bat out more than 10 overs while scoring very little in the T20I world championship in England (June 2009); I was planning to go for the SF and final, but those 10 overs killed my opportunity to watch any further matches!! (I took my wife to Wimbledon centre court instead, so no personal regrets!!).
Dhoni should just learn to be himself. We are now world champions, so let us behave like true champions -- not pathetic defensive sissies.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Prashant »

Interesting to hear such strong opinions. I wish that India had gone for the chase, but I think that as long as Dravid is guaranteed a #3 spot that is always unrealistic. A chase like that is eminently possible if you go for it from the very beginning. It is more risky if you play slow for half the inning & then try to hit. With Mukund out first ball, we basically sent in the worst player possible for such a chase. Dravid & Laxman need to bat at #8 & #7 if we really want to chase down a target. By the way, I am absolutely a Dravid fan (and a Laxman fan) and this is not in any way a slam on their prodigious abilities & yeoman contributions. But horses for courses. Don't chase an aggressive target by sending in your defensive force first.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Atithee »

The problem is that this was NOT an aggressive target no matter what we say. An aggressive target would have been something over 200 in the same number of overs and that too only because it's the fourth inning of a test match on a supposedly difficult pitch -- the same one where Fidel Edwards, let me say that again, Fidel Edwards batted for 37 overs just a few hours ago.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Prem »

This is where we missed VIRU and to some extent Gambhir and SRT would have also made a difference...
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Sandeep »

Very very strong words from everyone. It is indeed disappointing that India didn't even attempt a win the final test but I would give a benefit of doubt to Dhoni here. I am sure he would have taken the decision after understanding that it is futile to even put in a 1% effort. Overall a pretty poor series for India, they were neither convincing in the ODIs nor the tests.

I hope the England series will be much more competitive and lively.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by gbelday »

Varma wrote:Gautam,

(if there ever existed any such thing in our ever overrated Indian cricket).

- Varma
Our cricketing skills are highly overrated (PKB would most likey disagree with me on this). However, I love the game and I follow every match religiously. Don't get me wrong though - I would have loved them to chase and make a statement. When I realized that they gave up on the chase, I literally threw my phone in disgust. After some serious thinking, I realized that they were in no position to win once they lost Raina. I, for one, am not in the camp that thinks that it is ok to lose the match. I hate losing and a loss would have certainly set us back (not just in rankings). Prashant put it beautifully above. I agree with everything he said and there is no way I could have said it any better. If we were serious about winning, Dravid and Laxman should have been held back. We should have relied on Vijay, Bhajji, Raina, and Dhoni. If they didn't end up clicking, then we could rely on Dravid and Laxman to save the match. But the pressure on them would have been enormous and I still think it was our match to lose at that point.

Anyway, much has been written about this (and much more will be written and rightly so). I do agree with some of the folks here that this 1-0 victory isn't really a victory. It actually feels like a loss but I would take this any day over 1-1.

Please excuse the thumb typing. It took me 30 min to type this up (on the bus on my way home :))
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by PKBasu »

Our cricket is not over-rated. It is a national passion, and we are the world #1 for Test cricket for over 2 years, and now the official world champions of ODI cricket.

But given the target (of less than 4 runs an over), it was OK to send Dravid at #3 (since one opener had fallen for a duck). All that was needed was that we needed faster-scoring batsmen at the other end to accompany Dravid, with Laxman held back to be sheet anchor in case of any risk of defeat. Dhoni, Raina, Kohli and Harbhajan should have been scoring fast at the other end (not even slogging). Instead, we were behind the required run-rate throughout, and then abandoned the chase when just 86 runs were needed off 90 balls. This was absurd and disgraceful.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Sandeep »

We should have gone after the chase right from the beginning if we have to win the match! 86 from 90 balls is impossible in test cricket unless the bowlers are completely senseless. I don't remember any instance where a team was able to chase successfully when the required run rate is close to 6 in the tests.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by Prashant »

Sandeep is spot on. Everyone is assuming that India should have tried to get 86 of 90 balls. All well & good in an ODI. But in a test match, what is to prevent Sammy from running in & bowling almost wides to prevent scoring? I don't buy the notion that a run-rate that is easy in ODI translates to tests. Once it was 86 from 90, that was a tough ask. If we had gone for it from the start at close to 4 per over, that was much more possible.
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Re: India in West Indies, June-July 2011

Post by PKBasu »

Sandeep wrote:We should have gone after the chase right from the beginning if we have to win the match! 86 from 90 balls is impossible in test cricket unless the bowlers are completely senseless. I don't remember any instance where a team was able to chase successfully when the required run rate is close to 6 in the tests.
What??? Is it that difficult to score merely 86 runs off 90 balls in a Test match?? In the Karachi Test of 1978 (in which Gavaskar got centuries in both innings), Pakistan were set 164 runs to win off 26 overs (in 100 minutes!), and reached the target with 7 balls to spare. Asif Iqbal opened instead of Mudassar, his partner Majid was out early, and eventually Javed and Imran took Pakistan home comfortably. The team scored at 6.6 runs an over. At the beginning of the mandatory overs, Pakistan were 27/1 off 6 overs, still needing 137 runs to win. They scored those runs in 18.5 overs, with Asif and Javed putting on 97 runs off 9 overs at one stage!
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