Sourav Ganguly - One of our Greatest Captains!

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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by puneets »

His only sin being that he made century in the last test against Zim( they are no pushover when team india plays abroad) while all other batsman struggled and was instrumental in India's win.
I'm a bit fussy when it comes to numbers (read facts).

Scorecard : India vs. Zim

Gambhir - 46 (59 balls)
Sehwag - 44 (48 balls)
Dravid - 77 (117 balls)
Ganguly - 101 (262 balls)
Laxman - 140 (221 balls)
Pathan - 52 (103 balls)

India - 554
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by PKBasu »

Puneet, if you are fussy about numbers, please also apply the principle of full disclosure. Apart from the batsmen you mentioned, Yuvraj made 12 and Kartik 1 in that innings. So, yes, Sanjay may have gone slightly overboard, but Ganguly's century overseas shouldn't be sniffed at -- especially when you consider that the West Indies were ranked one slot above Zimbabwe, and all Indian magazines went berserk in praise of India's rather laboured 1-0 win in the West Indies this year. Last year's 2-0 clean sweep over Zimbabwe under Ganguly was the first time we had won a series there in more than a decade.

Ganguly was removed from the team immediately after winning the Zimbabwe series -- a very rare (perhaps the very first) example in test history of a winning captain being removed, especially as the captain had demonstrated form by making a century! Guest and others are irritated by my "ranting" on about this. If they were fair, they would note that I accept his exclusion when he is not in form. But when he is, and when he demonstrated form by taking the trouble of going to England last summer (Glamorgan), then showing form again in Zimbabwe, it was absurd for him to have been dropped from the side -- and also wrong for him to have been removed from the captaincy without cause. On his removal from the captaincy, he himself was quick to accept it -- and I have readily admitted that Dravid had fully earned the captaincy (something I was saying with great vehemence towards the second half of the home series against Pakistan, when Ganguly was in wretched, hopeless form). "Earning" the captaincy by dint of sheer performance is one thing, and I said at the time that I hoped Dravid would rise to the occasion as a leader. Sadly, he hasn't.

There is absolutely no chance of Ganguly returning as captain of India, but atleast Chappell and co. need to now acknowledge part of their error and allow him back into the team. Two losses in ODIs by more than 100 runs!!! Can we fall to any deeper depths of disgrace before better sense prevails?
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by Sandeep »

I think we are overreacting to what has happened in SA. It was a very bad performance but that was expected from India. I don't think any subcontinent team would have coped up with the bounce and swing in the pitch and beat SA in ODIs which were played 3 days after landing in SA. There was no preperation at all and it has been ages since India played on a bouncy track before this series. There was a lot of improvement in the third ODI compared to the second and I am sure our team will put up a good fight by the end of this ODI series. Hopefully they will start doing well from tomorrow itself. Go India.

As far as Ganguly's inclusion, I think everyone of us (atleast most) here think he deserves a place in the team. But there are other factors (apart from his form) which are influencing his selection. Ganguly under Dalmiya hardly obliged selectors (for the betterment of the team and rightly so). Probably he is facing the consequences for the same.
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

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Puneet, if you are fussy about numbers, please also apply the principle of full disclosure. Apart from the batsmen you mentioned, Yuvraj made 12 and Kartik 1 in that innings. So, yes, Sanjay may have gone slightly overboard, but Ganguly's century overseas shouldn't be sniffed at
I never belittled Dada's century. I posted those scores to make the facts clear. We can have different opinions and stands, we can change them whenever we like, but the facts remain the same.
I very rarely challenege assumptions and opinions held by others on this board. Facts - that's something different.

The timing of Ganguly's sacking was not correct. If you are dropping someone becuase of his bad form, then it makes no sense to drop him after he's recovered (read: scored a century on foreign soil). I used to quote Dada's stats prior to that series to highlight the fact that his form hasn't been all that great...and I do so for other players too. The bulk of reasons for Ganguly's exclusion were sadly not to do with cricket and on-field performnace (read: Chappell).
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

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Ganguly has stepped down from Bengal's captaincy. Looks like a recall to the Indian test team in imminent.

ToI article
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by puneets »

Dada strikes back :)
VVSL has replaced sehwag as the vice-captain.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/rsavind ... 70425.html
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by PKBasu »

Phew! It took a visit to Sharad Pawar's house by the entire selection committee.

But in the end, justice has at last been done. VVS Laxman must be looking to the stars and thanking them: a week ago, he was in the wilderness and his domestic form was proving fickle, today he is not only back in the test and ODI side, but is also vice-captain of the test team. Congratulations to him, and to the selectors for choosing wisely!!

Welcome back Sourav  :D !!
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by PKBasu »

Permit me a little more of a celebration  :D. Like other Ganguly fans, this moment has been a long time coming -- and I think we are permitted a paean or two to the man.

To me, Sourav Ganguly epitomises grit and determination. His presence in the side has an infectiously positive impact -- as he simply exudes optimism (those photos of him chewing his fingers being decidedly the exceptional moments). Nothing but an innate optimism could have enabled him to stage so many comebacks to the side, to keep going on despite seemingly insurmountable odds. When virtually all his fans (including I) had given up all hope of him ever making a comeback, here he is again in the Indian test side, ready once more to deliver the thrill of those unorthodox square-cuts for six, the silken cover drives, the glorious lofted shots over the bowler and into the deep mid-wicket stands.

There is nothing right about his batting: from the way he grips the bat (with part of the handle sticking out) to the way he prods defensively early in his innings (getting umpires to wrongly judge him out lbw because his huge pads are preventing them from judging where leg stump is), there is nothing orthodox about his approach. Sheer doggedness and determination, a superb eye and great cricketing nous are what have kept him going.

With 15,000 international runs, 34 centuries and 119 international wickets to his name, plus 21 test victories (7 more than any other previous Indian captain), you might imagine that Sourav has nothing more to prove or achieve. But then you are reckoning against the man's sense of destiny and purpose. When he was 17 and Sachin 16+, both made centuries for India under-19 against Pakistan. Sachin was soon in the full Indian side, and Sourav was convinced he would soon be too. At 19, he got his call -- only for his selection to be excoriated in the Indian media as being another case of zonal selection bias. Discarded after a solitary debut ODI game, he did mope a bit but fought a lonely fight in domestic cricket for four and a half years to somehow make it back into contention. The Indian press again went to town blasting his selection in 1996, but of course the rest is history: he unexpectedly made 48 in his comeback ODI match (batting at no. 3 when he was at #6 or 7 in most of the practice matches -- being set up to fail but succeeding instead). Having forced his way into the test side, he then made those two imperious centuries at Lord's and Leeds, suddenly emerging as a test certainty and prematurely ending Sanjay Manjrekar's career.

Upon his return, Ganguly promptly remarked that he should be thought of "like Steve Waugh" (an audacious comparison for a young upstart to make, but one reflecting the spirited cockiness that has always driven him); he was only talking about being a batsman with considerable bowling ability, but the comparison was eye-catching. Like Pankaj Roy, Jaideep Mukherjea and Chuni Goswami, Ganguly comes from an upper-middle-class Bengali family (a classic "bhadralok" with the noblesse oblige that comes naturally to someone of that class) but with a common touch that enables him to connect immediately with the young guns in the side. Like Pankaj, Jaideep and Chuni, he is actually a natural sportsman, who excelled in several sports at school (despite the appearance of being "unathletic" which comes from his ungainly running style). He could have become a Mohun Bagan footballer, but chose to focus on cricket when he was around 12. That late switch probably explains his seemingly-poor technique, although his natural ability and grit have more than compensated. 

Unlike many from that class, however, and very much like the great driven sportsmen of the past from Bengal cited above, Ganguly is a driven striver. Perhaps his work ethic is less comprehensive than Dravid's, but not greatly so. Without it, he could not have staged so many comebacks from seemingly insurmountable positions. Somehow, a person like that (rather than one -- like Shastri or Manjrekar -- who retires at the first evidence of losing his sinecure in the side) seems much more worthy of admiration.

Ultimately the most unexpected contribution Ganguly made to cricket and history generally, was his unique leadership style. By being inclusive, and giving leadership roles to the youngest members of the side, he was able to share the burdens of his lonely job. And it was a style that lifted India to lofty cricketing heights that it has simply never attained with any consistency before. While Kapil's Devils will always be on a higher pedestal for having won the ultimate ODI prize, Ganguly was able to consistently lift his side to being among the top-3 sides in the world in both tests and ODIs. Under him, India were runners-up and then joint winners of the Champions Trophy, runners-up in the World Cup and won numerous other ODI trophies (the Natwest Triseries in England most memorably). But it was in tests that he climbed Everest twice: first, by beating Australia (a side that had, until then, won a record 16 consecutive tests) not only in that epic test in Calcutta (where he made 48 in a century partnership with Laxman that is now forgotten, but helped set up the famous Laxman-Dravid one) but in Madras as well to win the series. Then, by beating Pakistan in Pakistan -- again a feat that had never before been achieved by an Indian side. Having beaten England 2-1 (home away) and Australia 3-2 (home-away) before that, Ganguly's India was arguably the greatest Indian test side ever that glorious March (2004).

There have been mainly lows in his career since, but here's hoping that we will have some glorious new highs in the weeks and months ahead. 
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by forpar »

Poor decision to include ganguly. S.African bowlers would be celebrating..its a cheap wicket for them.
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by arjun2761 »

I don't think they are celebrating, because there are plenty of known cheap wickets to be had already (look at the ODIs) -- at least, here is someone they have figure out again.
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by PKBasu »

forpar wrote: Poor decision to include ganguly. S.African bowlers would be celebrating..its a cheap wicket for them.
Let's see where the cheap wickets are now...

Indians 1st innings R M B 4s 6s SR
W Jaffer lbw b Hayward 0 2 3 0 0 0.00
V Sehwag b Morkel 0 7 1 0 0 0.00
VVS Laxman c Kemp b Morkel 23 93 61 3 0 37.70
SR Tendulkar c Kemp b Morkel 10 37 27 1 0 37.03
SC Ganguly not out 57 0 94 9 0 60.63
MS Dhoni c van Wyk b Morkel 6 20 13 1 0 46.15
IK Pathan not out 18 0 47 2 0 38.29
    Extras (b 2, lb 4, w 4, nb 6) 16     
       
    Total (5 wickets; 40.4 overs) 130     
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by forpar »

I will wait for tests and then comment.BTW, I will be *happy* if he contributes to Indian win. My contention is if we need some spine, we need to look ahead for youngsters, not back for some tried and failed spines. Unfortunately, in our players, that grit and determination only surfaces when they get trashed....and become complacent and then the whole cycle continues...again and again.
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by puneets »

I will be *happy* if he contributes to Indian win.
I guess that every "true fan" will be overjoyed if he contributes to Indian win. We may have our favourites/idols, but Team India comes first. I don't care who scores (as long as we win).
Go Dada.  :D
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by PKBasu »

forpar wrote: Poor decision to include ganguly. S.African bowlers would be celebrating..its a cheap wicket for them.
Isn't it remarkable that India were losing everything in South Africa until Ganguly arrived, and have immediately got onto the winning track since his arrival? Coincidence? Some would say correlation doesn't imply causation, but on this occasion the overwhelming evidence points to some magical contribution by Ganguly -- not just his batting, which has definitely been transformative, but (as Jay suggested in another thread) perhaps also his presence itself has galvanised the side.

India were thrashed in the one-dayers by massive, overwhelming margins -- and lost even the practice one-day game before the series. They did win the Twenty20 game after six South African players were rested (suggesting they weren't taking it at all seriously). But the team was in a deep hole of utter despondency at the end of the one-day series, and there appeared to be no way out. The pattern continued in the preparatory match at Potchefstroom against the Rest of South Africa. India were 37/3, as the pattern of top-order failure continued. Then, in walked Sourav Ganguly and made that transformational 83, easily the highest score by an Indian batsman on the tour until that point. Every observer pointed out that was crucial in altering India's fortunes and attitude, with Pathan going one better to make a century in that game.

And now, in the first test match, Ganguly again walked in with India in trouble and made a crucial unbeaten half-century. India are on top at the end of the second day, with a 311-run lead. Even if Laxman makes a century, there will be little doubt that the innings that changed India's fortunes was the 51* by Ganguly in the first innings, which steadied the ship and enabled India to post a challenging score -- in the face of which SA collapsed.

forpar's ludicrous allusions to Ganguly being a "proven failure" are absurd. The most successful captain in Indian test history a failure? Well, then, everybody else who has ever played for India must be a proven failure too. Ganguly was dropped from the test side (and removed from the captaincy) immediately after he had made a century and led India to its first away-series win in 19 years (and its first clean-sweep test series win overseas -- this against a Zimbabwe side that included Heath Streak, Tatendu Taibu, Blignaut, etc.). He has over 10,000 ODI runs and 22 centuries, and has been unjustly kept out of the ODI side for the past 15 months. His form had definitely dipped during his last one year as ODI captain, but it is ludicrous to keep a man with a career average of over 40 out when the likes of Suresh Raina are failing repeatedly -- as indeed is the rest of the ODI batting order. An objective selection committee would have also taken account of the fact that his dip in ODI form was related to his holding the captaincy during a period of moderate performances by the team (and should therefore have at least given him a chance to demonstrate some form without the burdens of captaincy -- as he had overwhelmingly in England in the 2005 season -- before dropping him outright from the side). Ganguly's absence, of course, has resulted in the most catastrophic performance by the ODI side in 2006. With his bat doing the talking this month, the selectors will hopefully shed their past stupidity (and, of course, Vengsarkar is in a completely different league from the absurdly petty Kiran More). All credit to Vengsarkar, in fact, for sticking his neck out to bring Ganguly back into the side. The likes of the mediocre Shastri and Bhogle were questioning the decision in the commentary box all the way, but they too have been silenced. And we haven't even seen the possible impact of Ganguly's golden bowling arm yet. Our domestic cricket isn't that hopeless (as Ganguly has shown, and as Mongia and Raina's ducks upon return to the Ranji scene also show!). This year, Ganguly has 9 wickets from three first-class matches (he didn't bowl in the fourth) at an average of less than 16. When called upon, he will demonstrate that bowling form in ODIs and tests too (indeed, he broke a threatening opening partnership -- that the regular pacers were unable to -- in his last test in Pakistan).
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Re: Ganguly's omission from the team - your opinion

Post by puneets »

I don't think that people will put forth the "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" argument.
This time, Ganguly's bat is doing all the talking and his innings of 51* was crucial in taking India to the doorsteps of victory. His 25 in the 2nd innigs was also well compiled.

His performance has (should have) silenced all the critics...including me  :oops:.
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