India in South Africa, January 2018

As the other sports forums seem to have taken old to some respect, well here is a cricket forum. NOTE: This forum will be heavily moderated and can be revoked at any time is discussions go out of hand.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 31337
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Singapore

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by PKBasu » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:47 am

I don’t understand why Shreyas Iyer keeps getting picked ahead of Manish Pandey.

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12163
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by prasen9 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:20 pm

Iyer averages 45 at a SR of 99. Manish 39 at 93. List A's both are around 39, with SR Iyer 91, Manish 90. In FC cricket, Iyer is at 53.9 and Manish 51.35. So perhaps Iyer has a marginally better if shorter body of work.

He is also 23 and Manish 28. We have a bunch around 28-30: Kohli, Rahane, Rohit, etc. It is good practice to groom another younger batsman when their domestic production is about the same.

When we make any decision, we have an exploration phase and an exploitation phase. Say you are selling a house, how many offers should you see before you take an offer? Some work says 3 and among them choose the best. Similarly, dating. You are supposed to let quite a few go until a certain age (the exploration phase) and choose the best after that ... (I am paraphrasing perhaps badly). I could fish out the papers.

In this case, the choice of Iyer is not saying necessarily that the selectors have concluded he is better --- as in if that match was the WC final, they would have played him over Manish. It is the selectors exploring the space because Manish has been okay but has not set the world on fire. I think this year there will be some more experimentation. Manish should be given a lot more chances as should Iyer. Kedar a few more. I think once we choose someone, we should give them a fair run.

User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 31337
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Singapore

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by PKBasu » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:26 am

Iyer's average of 45 is based on two innings of 88 and 65 against SL (and two failures, one against SL and one against SA) -- the first time, in the innings in which Rohit made 208, the second in an innings in which Dhawan made a quick century. So neither was an innings under pressure (and citing his average over a mere 4 innings is neither here nor there). Manish Pandey, on the other hand, has played a match-winning innings in Australia under extreme pressure when the rest of the batting had failed. He has been in and out of the team since. If anyone deserves a fair run over a period of time, it is him.

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12163
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by prasen9 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:20 am

Absolutely, both do. Like I said this is the exploration phase. Manish has scored a century in Australia. The team is seeing whether Iyer can abroad. Basically, both are being evaluated in parallel.

S_K_S
Member
Member
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:00 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by S_K_S » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:21 pm

Hopefully Sharma does us all a favour by running out Rahane. He was totally the wrong batsman for the position that India find themselves in. Hopefully Iyer proves PKB wrong.

S_K_S
Member
Member
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:00 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by S_K_S » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:33 pm

A right royal mess up this has become. 171/2 after 30 so only 100 from the next 20.

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12163
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by prasen9 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:31 pm

Rahane cannot be a player in the MO. Wrong team selection is doing us in in this series time and again. And, in most of these cases it is not in hindsight. We have called these selections out on this forum before and right after they happened. Awful batting. Again, Rahane single-handedly turned the momentum. Iyer is okay but not yet polished. I'd give him some more chances. Again, we have no sixth bowler. Someone has a bad day and we will be done with this sub-par score. 50 runs short of a mediocre total, imho. I would give Iyer, Manish, and Kedar a few more chances. Take Rahane out. I would start with Iyer and Kedar because they seem to be more hard-hitting types but I am fine with Manish too.

User avatar
VReddy
Member
Member
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:34 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by VReddy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:38 pm

Rahane won us the first match though. The big problem is also that none of our bowlers can bat. Jadeja / Ashwin would have made our lower order really formidable but alas. I think we shouldn't trash Jadeja so fast.. He was one of the best fielders in the world too

User avatar
VReddy
Member
Member
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:34 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by VReddy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:58 pm

Shreyas Iyer dropped another catch. Not sure if his catching is ready for international cricket yet (similar to Parthiv's keeping)

Bumrah to Markram, 1 run, chance and Shreyas has put down a dolly, straight in and straight out, came at a good height and his captain isn't too pleased. On a good length and just outside off, Markram got forward on the drive, couldn't keep it on the ground, went straight to extra-cover where Shreyas went reverse cup and shelled it

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12163
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by prasen9 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm

VReddy wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:38 pm
Rahane won us the first match though.
Huh? Chahal, Kuldeep, and Kohli won us the match. Rahane played a strong supporting role. But, the way he slows down and turns the momentum totally in matches such as the last one and this, his one-off performance when we are chasing low totals is not acceptable. And, it is not only in this match or this series. He has struggled all his career to take the singles and keep the strike rate going.
The big problem is also that none of our bowlers can bat. Jadeja / Ashwin would have made our lower order really formidable but alas. I think we shouldn't trash Jadeja so fast.. He was one of the best fielders in the world too
Bhuvi can. We do need to ask Kuldeep and Chahal to start taking batting more seriously. Kuldeep can bat a bit. So, we are fine on that end. The problem with Jadeja and Bhuvi is that they can bat but they are not good at taking wickets in ODIs. In today's ODIs, you need wickets. Or else, whatever run-rate is set will be overcome at the end.

User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 31337
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Singapore

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by PKBasu » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:29 pm

Superb stuff from Kuldeep Yadav today, and right through the series. He tossed it up more today I think (from the little I saw, as I was travelling).

Bhuvi has been disappointing. He needs to get attacking fields at the start of the innings so that he can take wickets, but he doesn't get those in ODIs. He should be preserved for tests, but perhaps plays ODIs ahead of Shami because he can bat too.

Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 2991
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by Sin Hombre » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:24 am

It is not about Rahane vs Iyer vs Kedar (and that's without getting to Pandya and Dhoni).

They are all terrible!

An ODI middle order bat in modern cricket should have
1. List A average of around 45 with SR of close to 90 with ability to rotate the ball, or big hitting ability with a list A average of ~30 with SR > 100
2. Good outfielders and catcher.

Kedar and Iyer are both terrible fielders and catchers. Iyer even has a list A average of 39 so not sure where this confidence to invest in him is coming from.

Rahane cannot rotate the strike and has a terrible list A average of 37.

Neither Manish Pandey nor KL Rahul have the stats to back themselves up either.


I know it is a regressive step but I would bring back Suresh Raina. 35+ average at 94 SR, excellent fielder and economical 5th bowler option.

Curious if someone has a name or 2 which fits all the criteria. Honestly the only names I can think of are throwing Shubman Gill into the deep end or playing Mayank Agarwal (44 average at 97 SR) but the latter plays top of order.

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12163
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by prasen9 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:52 am

Wriddhiman Saha, List-A average 42, SR don't know. In T20s, his SR is 130 which is sort of mediocre, I guess. :p

Kedar Jadhav, List-A average 47.41, SR 107. Which is why I think he should be continued a few more games unless someone else is really breaking down the door.

Ex-India player Gurkeerat comes closest. 43.33@87.1. He would be pretty good as a sixth bowler.

I'm fine with trying Mayank in the MO but do not know whether he can get that SR and average without the power play overs.

I do not think you can find anyone else who is above 42 and over a SR of 87. So, it is pointless to hope for that. We have to decide who among the ones we have is the best.

The problem with Raina is that he is not that great when the wicket is tough. And Raina averages 35.86 in List-As although he maintains a similar number in ODIs. I am not against having him though.

In MLB, they platoon left-handers and right-handers. So, how about we platoon Raina/Rahane. When the wicket is tough, we send out Rahane. Otherwise, we select Raina.

Using your selection criterion, the MO should be Dhoni, Gurkeerat, Kedar (assuming we do not repurpose Mayank). I think big-hitting ~30 averaging players are rather useless if they do not bat. They have to be all-rounders. These days if you need 300 from your top 5/6 batsmen you pretty much need high average players. Maybe a #7 could be averaging 30. But, a #7 must be able to bowl his or her quota of 10 overs.

User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 31337
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Singapore

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by PKBasu » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:14 pm

Manoj Tiwary would have fitted the criteria for most of his career, and would bring the added advantage of being a good sixth bowler (who can take wickets but might be expensive). Excellent fielder too. But he is past his best now, and no longer warrants consideration.

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12163
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: India in South Africa, January 2018

Post by prasen9 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:17 pm

Manoj Tiwary would have been a good #4 for his times had he been given a fair run. However, he was not the hard-hitting types that Sin Hombre and the Australians seem to want. I think SR is given too much importance. We need a player who can hit if wanted and take singles at will. Kohli and Raina fit this bill. They can also stay at the wicket --- more so Kohli than Raina. If we don't have that, we need to get at least those that average ~35 in List-As and not the ~30 types who can hit hard. Australia is unsettled because they chose SR in Mitch Marsh and Maxwell but these folks are not very good if the pitch gives something to the bowler. Don't know if George Bailey is too old and not as consistent now but he was dropped earlier than he should have been and that is why the Aussies are having to look for a batsman with some backbone now.

If we want the biggest hitters, we have to give Gurkeerat and Kedar a fair run. And give an ultimatum to Kedar to get fit and take his fielding seriously. No improvement, he should be out even if he is good with the bat.

Post Reply