Virat Kohli Thread

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by prasen9 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:35 pm

I would add Sehwag to that list. I think we may see more of Dravids and Kohlis in the future, but, Sehwag was a unique batsman, who we will possibly see less of.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by Prashant » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:23 pm

jayakris wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:24 am
By the way, Viswanathan is probably one that I would respect at the same level, but he is not in a sports event.
Wow, a genuine sports-india blast from the past! Makes me nostalgic :D

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by Observer » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:10 am

jayakris wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:24 am

By the way, Viswanathan is probably one that I would respect at the same level, but he is not in a sports event.
While reading through your comment I was thinking of Anand and then that thought was validated when I reached the last line :). I cant agree more with your comments. I consider 3 other Indian sportsmen in the same class:
- Major Dhyan Chand
- Kapil Dev
- Ghulam Mohammad Baksh (The great Gama): Here is more about him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gama.
I understand that its difficult to measure the extent of Gama's dominance because he competed in a sport which wasnt as well regulated at the time. He was extremely dominant in the opportunities he got against top international wrestlers and huge hype surrounds him till this day.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by Observer » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:25 am

I would also want to include Mary Kom in that list. She won the world championship 5 times. Unfortunately Womens boxing was not an Olympic event in all those years. Finally in 2012 when womens boxing was included in the Olympics, she had to fight in higher weight category when she was way past her prime to win an Olympic bronze. She could easily have won multiple Olympic Golds had Womens Boxing been an Olympic sport right from the beginning of her career.

<EDIT>
I searched and found out that she is the most decorated female boxer of all time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIBA_Worl ... mpionships

Her male counterpart Félix Savón has 3 Olympic Golds!!!
</EDIT>

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by Observer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:43 pm

[At the risk of digressing further from VK] Mary Kom makes a come back after 4 years to do this yesterday.
http://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/2 ... ships-gold

Such an unbelievable athlete.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by prasen9 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:52 am

Jay's original post was about the number of players we have produced of world class in cricket. So, I did not include sports such as weightlifting, boxing, and Leander, etc. I chose sports where we have had players who were, say in the top-3 of their sports at some point in time.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by Observer » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:48 am

prasen9 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:52 am
Jay's original post was about the number of players we have produced of world class in cricket. So, I did not include sports such as weightlifting, boxing, and Leander, etc. I chose sports where we have had players who were, say in the top-3 of their sports at some point in time.
I understand. I was adding to it that there are 5 other Indian sportspersons who also reached those heights, where they were the best in their sport in the world. Leander has been amazing but was definitely not in the same league because he was primarily a doubles player apart from some big successes early in his career. No Indian wrestler or boxer apart from Mary was ever the best in the world. Sushil came close but was never the best.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by rajitghosh » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:02 am

Dhyan Chand should definitely be among the greatest. But if you consider hockey, Balbir Singh (Sr) was a not so distant second to Dhyan chand.
Moderators are free to move this to a hockey thread.
If you compare the Indian hockey teams pre-war and post-war it was far more difficult to win gold medals post-war.
In 1928, when India played for the 1st time, there was no worthy competition with Great Britain, the strongest hockey team in those days having withdrawn supposedly with the fear of losing to their colony. Holland, the hosts, was not the team it is today.
1932 Olympics were a joke after the Great Depression with only Japan and USA participating.
In 1936, Hitler's Germany certainly had a strong team and beat India in a practice game. That forced Dhyan Chand to fly in AIS Dara to re-inforce the team. Of course, we beat the Germans comprehensively in the final in one of India's finest sporting moments.
In those days, apart from Dhyan Chand, Roop Singh (and Dara) most players were Anglo Indians from Calcutta and Bombay.
However, post war the competition was different. Great Britain was back. Pakistan was there with Dara as part of the team and the others like Holland and Australia were starting to emerge as hockey powers. West Germany had re-emerged after the war.
The team in those days had Balbir Singh, KD Singh Babu, Leslie Claudius, Randhir Singh Gentle, Keshav Dutt and Ranganathan Francis each a legend in his own right. Because of the abysmal state of hockey today, we tend to forget these legends and talk of cricketers as our glorious icons.
After all, 8 Olympic Golds is no joke.
In fact, among later players also, I would rate Ajitpal Singh, the captain of the 1975 World Cup winning team and Dhanraj Pillay as true greats. If Dhanraj had been part of a strong team like Australia or Holland, today everyone would be hailing him as a legend.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by rajitghosh » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:10 am

Also, within cricket itself India had several truly great players at a time when the Indian cricket team was declared as rag tag and bobtail by Fred Truman.
Vinoo Mankad, Vijay Hazare, Subhash Gupte and Polly Umrigar as well as Bedi, Chandra and Prasanna were greats at a time when India did not win too many matches. Also, keep in mind in those days India did not play as many tests as they do today. There were no test against South Africa, no matches against Pakistan between 1961 and 1978 and Sri Lanka wasn't even a test nation. Out of the names mentioned above, Mankad made his debut at the age of 29, some of his best years having been lost to the war. Even Hazare started late. Prasanna took a 4 year break to study engineering (there was no money in those days). Mankad, Hazare and Gupte played less than 40 tests each. Imagine if they had played 70-80 tests.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by prasen9 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:14 am

Of course, hockey. But, since Jay only picked cricketers who have played in the last 45 years or so, I did not choose hockey. We were world beaters in hockey half a century ago.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by jayakris » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:10 am

I was not really talking about the "greats" per se. I was specifically talking about the unusual greatness that is involved in scoring centuries at an unusually good frequency in long careers, on which we have produced three true greats (Gavaskar, Tendulkar and Dravid) who are all in the top-7 in the world. There are of course other Indian sportsmen whom I respect more than these three, including other Indian cricketers too (Vinoo Mankad is whom I respect most). I just find it unusual that we have produced three who were so good at a sports activity (hitting centuries) that requires uncanny focus, concentration, dedication, and stamina - traits that we are really not known for, especially among sportsmen. It is a bit of a subtle point that I am making, and it seems I am not making it all that well either :)

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by rajitghosh » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:35 am

You can equate scoring centuries in cricket or taking wickets (I forgot to mention Anil Kumble in my earlier post) with scoring goals in hockey. By that logic Dhyan Chand and Balbir Singh are on par with the names being talked about here as they could score goals at will against top teams (Dhyan Chand against Germany in the 1936 final and Balbir Singh against Great Britain in the 1948 finals and Holland in the 1952 finals being the best examples). You can also include winning world titles at will- Pankaj Advani in billiards and Vishwanathan Anand in Chess (has won world titles in all possible formats- match play, league, knock out, rapid and blitz).

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by jayakris » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:00 am

rajitghosh wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:35 am
You can equate scoring centuries in cricket or taking wickets (I forgot to mention Anil Kumble in my earlier post) with scoring goals in hockey. By that logic Dhyan Chand and Balbir Singh are on par with the names being talked about here as they could score goals at will against top teams (Dhyan Chand against Germany in the 1936 final and Balbir Singh against Great Britain in the 1948 finals and Holland in the 1952 finals being the best examples). You can also include winning world titles at will- Pankaj Advani in billiards and Vishwanathan Anand in Chess (has won world titles in all possible formats- match play, league, knock out, rapid and blitz).
Not really. The margin of error needed in scoring a century is very very low. You have to be so focused to avoid mistakes, compared to all the other activities you mention, with the exception of chess (but that is not a sport; only a game, at best). Bowling, scoring in hockey, etc, where one is world class is of course great feats. All I said is that none of them require focus, dedication, concentration and stamina to remain mistake free, like needed in scoring centuries; especially to do that so many times over such long careers. That is a something unique in Gavaskar, SRT and Dravid. That's all I said. Lots of other things are great or greater achievements in sports, and there are many greater sportsmen in India too.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by rajitghosh » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:26 am

jayakris wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:00 am
rajitghosh wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:35 am
You can equate scoring centuries in cricket or taking wickets (I forgot to mention Anil Kumble in my earlier post) with scoring goals in hockey. By that logic Dhyan Chand and Balbir Singh are on par with the names being talked about here as they could score goals at will against top teams (Dhyan Chand against Germany in the 1936 final and Balbir Singh against Great Britain in the 1948 finals and Holland in the 1952 finals being the best examples). You can also include winning world titles at will- Pankaj Advani in billiards and Vishwanathan Anand in Chess (has won world titles in all possible formats- match play, league, knock out, rapid and blitz).
Not really. The margin of error needed in scoring a century is very very low. You have to be so focused to avoid mistakes, compared to all the other activities you mention, with the exception of chess (but that is not a sport; only a game, at best). Bowling, scoring in hockey, etc, where one is world class is of course great feats. All I said is that none of them require focus, dedication, concentration and stamina to remain mistake free, like needed in scoring centuries; especially to do that so many times over such long careers. That is a something unique in Gavaskar, SRT and Dravid. That's all I said. Lots of other things are great or greater achievements in sports, and there are many greater sportsmen in India too.
Saying bowling or hockey do not need focus is not right. If a bowler does not focus he will bowl bad balls, if a hockey player does not focus he would miss easy traps and goals. Kumble ' s strength was his focus. He would come after the batsmen in long spells with unerring accuracy over after over. Bedi was also very accurate and had variations that could only come out of focus. In terms of dedication none of the names mentioned here would be any less than the batting trio. As far as stamina goes I think bowlers and hockey players need more stamina than batsmen given that these players were average runners between the wickets.

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Re: Virat Kohli Thread

Post by prasen9 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:57 am

rajitghosh wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:26 am
Saying bowling or hockey do not need focus is not right.
Who said this?

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