Indian Athletics Thread ...

All other sports such as squash, badminton,volleyball, atheletics etc which are not covered by any other forum heading can be entered in this forum

Moderator: Moderators

Mugundan
Member
Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 6:17 am
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Kerala

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Mugundan » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:49 pm

jayakris wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:43 pm
Atithee wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:38 am
rajitghosh wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:40 am
No saag I hope?
Or, God forbid, any gender issues. Mugu, your take?
The longer Mugu takes to respond, the more worried I become. But he was here yesterday predicting that she would win it. I suspect he wouldn't do that and would only stay quiet if he had any doubts.
Sorry Jay, there weren't doubts about her ability to win this one. There was no one in the field who could have challenged her, especially over the last 80 metres.
Doubts will yet remain about the query that Atithee posed (and perhaps you too have that Jay). Is it spinach? Or is there a gender issue? Ever since she hit big time this season, many of us have been asking that question. Doubts will remain till something concrete emerges.
Watch that clip again. She shows no fatigue in the end having run a blinder from 80m out. Can any one finish a 400 like that? Watch others, gasping or holding their hips or bending. Hima is running through and prompting the crowd to cheer her.
Her age is not the only factor here but her ability to consistently clock 51-plus in her first full competitive season over the distance. At the elite level she is only into her second year. And she has run 51.13 already (Guwahati) only the National record of 51.03 (2004) remains to be bettered. That should come in Jakarta.

User avatar
Atithee
Member
Member
Posts: 3325
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:14 pm

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Atithee » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:52 pm

Thanks Mugu. I’m curious—how does gender issue surface? Is there a regular testing for it as it is for spinach? Or, someone has to lodge a protest—presumably a perennial loser?

Mugundan
Member
Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 6:17 am
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Kerala

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Mugundan » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:01 pm

There is no gender test now since CAS stayed the IAAF regulations in the Dutee Chand case. They have announced a new set of regulations that is scheduled to come into force from November 2018. In the meantime, as you know, Caster Semenya has challenged the new regulations which affect only events 400m upwards up to and including the mile. Dutee will be spared from the new regulations but 400m will come in.
That is if the new regulations last the first challenge of Semenya. Right now it looks tough for those regulations to remain in the form in which the IAAF has proposed.
Thus, we may never know of any hyperandrogenism (gender) issue of any athlete from now onward till the IAAF comes up with something new all over again. Just a thought...
Like in the old regulations, an authority will need to probe into such issues either on its own or based on complaints or as a follow-up to doubts that arise through blood tests or during a doping control process etc.

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12592
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by prasen9 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:08 pm

Mugu, why do you say that the IAAF regulations will not withstand CAS scrutiny? The IAAF made this narrow determination because they supposedly have data to show that having a high level of testosterone gives female athletes a 8% advantage or so on average, which no other "feature" gives. CAS in a prior case wanted the evidence behind the IAAF testosterone regulations. Now, I think they will be on more solid ground unless the "research" can itself be challenged.

I do not think we have a very good definition of male or female because of many shades of gray! The testosterone-based one seems somewhat reasonable to me although I do not know fully the pros or cons of other definitions.

Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Sin Hombre » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:13 am

My reading of the situation is that IAAF came unstuck at the CAS level in the Dutee Chand case which is why they came up with the new regs to essentially target Semenya.

Of course, hammer and shot put where testosterone apparently gives the greatest advantage were conveniently left out by the IAAF. While I am all for a scientific argument here, IAAF is not and cares more about regulations which can impact non-Caucasian athletes the most.

Mugundan
Member
Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 6:17 am
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Kerala

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Mugundan » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:40 am

prasen9 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:08 pm
Mugu, why do you say that the IAAF regulations will not withstand CAS scrutiny? The IAAF made this narrow determination because they supposedly have data to show that having a high level of testosterone gives female athletes a 8% advantage or so on average, which no other "feature" gives. CAS in a prior case wanted the evidence behind the IAAF testosterone regulations. Now, I think they will be on more solid ground unless the "research" can itself be challenged.

I do not think we have a very good definition of male or female because of many shades of gray! The testosterone-based one seems somewhat reasonable to me although I do not know fully the pros or cons of other definitions.
For one thing, scientists have already pointed out holes in the research paper that IAAF based its new regulations on. For another, the media, independent critics, scientists et al are once again very active on the topic. Apart from the South African Government that has backed Caster Semenya's challenge in CAS, various human rights groups etc have supported her case. It now looks no longer a hyperandrogenism issue but a human rights one or a racial discrimination one.
When IAAF suggested new regulations to CAS in the Dutee Chand case, it mentioned hammer and pole vault. In fact in their paper these two were shown to derive the biggest advantage through extra androgens. In the final recommendations the IAAF has left out both these events, leaving themselves vulnerable to the charge that their regulations are aimed at black athletes. (HT and PV are largely white-dominated in the world).
The increase in levels is being shown at around 4% maximum. CAS had talked about 10% in the Dutee Chand case.

Mugundan
Member
Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 6:17 am
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Kerala

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Mugundan » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:47 am

Sin Hombre wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:13 am
My reading of the situation is that IAAF came unstuck at the CAS level in the Dutee Chand case which is why they came up with the new regs to essentially target Semenya.

Of course, hammer and shot put where testosterone apparently gives the greatest advantage were conveniently left out by the IAAF. While I am all for a scientific argument here, IAAF is not and cares more about regulations which can impact non-Caucasian athletes the most.
IAAF failed to convince CAS in the Dutee Chand case that there was an advantage that could come up equivalent to or at least close to male advantage. Thus they were forced to (asked to) redraft the rules based on fresh scientific evidence that would satisfy CAS.
I doubt whether there is a racial angle here or whether it is directed against a particular athlete. All the distance events are (have been) dominated by the African athletes. Then why not bring in an argument to extend this rule to include say 3000k to steeplechase to 5k to 10k to marathon to cross-country?
It is surprising, though, that research couldn't find evidence to include the sprints in this group of events. Testosterone for sprinters sounds the most ideal diet!

User avatar
prasen9
Member
Member
Posts: 12592
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:49 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: State College, PA
Contact:

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by prasen9 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:49 am

It will ultimately depend upon the opinion of the CAS.

I think very few scientists have opposed the contention that testosterone helps performance. I think most of the opposition is based on racism, the human rights issue, and letting people decide what "sex" they belong to mentally, etc.

At some point, you have to draw the line because someone with full male genitals, etc. will otherwise say they are female. But, given that external organs can be of varying "shades of gray", and internally, you may have two gonads in spite of being female externally, I don't know how you can draw a line that you have to draw to keep "men" out of women's races!

Mugundan
Member
Member
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 6:17 am
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Kerala

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Mugundan » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:08 am

prasen9 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:49 am
It will ultimately depend upon the opinion of the CAS.

I think very few scientists have opposed the contention that testosterone helps performance. I think most of the opposition is based on racism, the human rights issue, and letting people decide what "sex" they belong to mentally, etc.

At some point, you have to draw the line because someone with full male genitals, etc. will otherwise say they are female. But, given that external organs can be of varying "shades of gray", and internally, you may have two gonads in spite of being female externally, I don't know how you can draw a line that you have to draw to keep "men" out of women's races!
I agree with you prasen. But the debate in the Dutee Chand case and now in the Semenya case have not gone as per logical arguments. It is all about "sex is not binary; these regulations are aimed at blacks and browns; these are violative of human rights" etc. If the anti-IAAF/IOC argument has to be agreed to then they may require several categories, not just male and female, in every sport.

User avatar
jaydeep
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 22528
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:59 am
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: India

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by jaydeep » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:43 am

Neeraj Chopra is showing consistency in his throws ... Yesterday, he threw 85.69M in Savo Games at Lapinlahti, Finland.

You can check video at below link.
https://www.facebook.com/sportsbeatsind ... 136371329/

sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 25019
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by sameerph » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:06 am

And in winning here, Neeraj beat Taiwanese Chao-Tsun Cheng who is likely to be his main competitor at Asian games. Cheng is the only Asian to throw in excess of 90M which he did at World University Games in Taipei last year. However, Cheng has not thrown in excess of 85M this year so far while Neeraj has had 5 throws in excess of 85M. So, yesterday's win over Cheng is another morale booster for Neeraj before Asian games.

User avatar
kujo
Authors
Authors
Posts: 2999
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by kujo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:46 pm

jaydeep wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:43 am
Neeraj Chopra is showing consistency in his throws ... Yesterday, he threw 85.69M in Savo Games at Lapinlahti, Finland.

You can check video at below link.
https://www.facebook.com/sportsbeatsind ... 136371329/
Interesting... Javelin throwing form has evolved or what?
You throw and then you are on all fours (hands and legs) to stop the momentum from pushing you across the line!! :)

User avatar
jayakris
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 24140
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:24 am
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: Irvine, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by jayakris » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:07 pm

kujo wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:46 pm
Interesting... Javelin throwing form has evolved or what?
You throw and then you are on all fours (hands and legs) to stop the momentum from pushing you across the line!! :)
And he actually had an extra meter in him, if he can perfect that form of stopping himself on all fours.

Sin Hombre
Member
Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Chicago

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by Sin Hombre » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:48 am

Excellent interview with Gurbachan Singh Randhawa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... wjVYZMJWM4

Feels like all our old legends like him and Milkha Singh are all hoping for Neeraj to get us that elusive first medal.

sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 25019
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI

Re: Indian Athletics Thread ...

Post by sameerph » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:26 pm

6 of our athletes are part of Asian team which takes part in inter continental cup this Saturday and Sunday at Ostrava, Czeck Republic.

Neeraj Chopra ( javelin), Jinson Johnson (800/1500M), Mohd. Anas (400M), Arpinder Singh ( triple jump), Sudha Singh (3000M steepalchase) and PU Chitra (1500M) will all be there.

So, 3 of our Asiad gold medallists are there. Hima Das withdrew due to injury. I don't know what Shot putter Tejinder Toor is not there.

Lets see if they can replicate their Asiad timing/ distances here.

Post Reply