All things related to China's aggression

[Sin Hombre]

I would ask the bigger question. What is in our long-term interests? What is the long-term strategy and what is the short-term component of that? China will do this and keep doing this unless we have a good containment strategy. Is it to raise hell and ask the UN and international community to do things? How do we get their votes and backing? Is it to stake out points where we have strategic geographical advantage and defend up until that?

UN is done.

China has taken over a lot of organizations inside the UN and are steadily buying more votes and influence. 3/10 major ones are in their hands and they almost got a 4th earlier this year (the one which determines IP rights, the irony of it is not lost).

[prasen9]

Ok. So, maybe there is not much hope there. But, just a coalition of countries who would be on our side.

UN is possibly done. But, I did not get a feeling when it was not done. It used to do the bidding of the U.S. Now, we have China copying the U.S. style of buying out people, bullying others, etc. And, the U.S. just bypassed the U.N. when it could not get the U.N. in line. Expect China to do the same.

In my lifetime (I am guessing by 2050), we will possibly not see a world government that works to maintain peace and results in trade, movement of people, and resulting prosperity. But, I hope humanity will make progress eventually.

[Sin Hombre]

The US is built on more libertarian values than China so there is no equivalence when it comes to what's good for India or for an individual's right. As the premise of my original post suggested, the world has let CCP get away with this for too long and it is and should be very concerning.

Saw a recent study where they believe Italy saw the first cases of Covid-19 in late November; CCP hid it for almost 6 more weeks which was clearly critical to any attempts by the rest of the world to contain it.

[jayakris]

Meanwhile, the Indian military did complete, just yesterday, the 60 meter bridge at the Daulat Beg Oldie even after the bloody confrontation barely 2 km from there earlier. They were given orders to finish it at whatever cost, and they did. Congrats.

[prasen9]

The US is built on more libertarian values than China so there is no equivalence when it comes to what's good for India or for an individual's right.

There is no equivalence. But, the U.S. does not care for any values except what is better for the U.S. companies. China is following that. Maybe the difference is what is better for China's government amassing power. Trying to accumulate wealth and trying to accumulate power are very similar. Often, in the world, they are interchangeable. Cry me a river talking about U.S. libertarian values when they had enslaved people for 200 years. And supported the world's worst dictators and tends to do so even now. Values are values for PR purposes only. When it comes to the U.N. it is all about business and about amassing wealth and power for the country.

As the premise of my original post suggested, the world has let CCP get away with this for too long and it is and should be very concerning.

My premise is that the world has let all the various dictators and imperialists get away with a whole lot of stuff for too long. And, I would like the rule of law in international affairs instead of might is right. The U.S. is the main blocker of a strong international rule of law. China is happily exploiting that void created by the U.S. If might is right for one country, might is right for another too. Unfortunately, I do not agree with any of this. But, we are helpless. You sow what you reap. If we had a strong world government and the U.S. had not blocked all of these efforts, today things may have been different.

Saw a recent study where they believe Italy saw the first cases of Covid-19 in late November; CCP hid it for almost 6 more weeks which was clearly critical to any attempts by the rest of the world to contain it.

The first case in France was in November too. But, it was possibly not detected by then. Italy was the one who was the most hurt by the CCP hiding things. The U.S. had ample time. Even with more time, the response would have been exactly the same as it was this time. The government would have blustered about things being under control until it was obviously not. So, six more weeks would not have made a difference to the likes of Brazil or the U.S. India did the lockdown on time. So, we would not have been impacted either. But the early birds in Europe, Italy or Spain could have reduced the numbers. Italy too initially did not care much. So, don't really know if it would have mattered to anyone. Because governments are very loathe to shutting down the economy in an unprecedented manner until the bodies are piling up at the hospitals. The East Asian countries with prior SARS memory could have done better, earlier though. But, they did not suffer that many casualties anyway.

Having said all this, I completely denounce the CCP's hiding things for 6 weeks and would want all governments in the future to be truthful for things of this magnitude.

[Sin Hombre]

Cry me a river talking about U.S. libertarian values when they had enslaved people for 200 years.

I am not going to judge history based on current moral values, everyone had imperialist tendencies and supported slavery in that era, including in what was Indian then (with indentured slave labourers working farms).

I will judge nations based on current moral values and China/CCP is quite unique in supporting those now (be it treatment of Tibetans or Uighurs, or their imperialist tendencies with all of their neighbours).

The first case in France was in November too. But, it was possibly not detected by then. Italy was the one who was the most hurt by the CCP hiding things. The U.S. had ample time. Even with more time, the response would have been exactly the same as it was this time. The government would have blustered about things being under control until it was obviously not. So, six more weeks would not have made a difference to the likes of Brazil or the U.S

I have to disagree on this.

Of course, it would have made a difference. 4 million Chinese citizens left China in those 6 weeks, and a lot of those went to the Western world.

Most of Europe and the US enforced travel bans from China end of Feb. If that had happened mid-Jan, there would be no pandemic and we would have had a trickle of cases like Korea has had.

Having said all this, I completely denounce the CCP's hiding things for 6 weeks and would want all governments in the future to be truthful for things of this magnitude.

Denouncing means nothing when you are facing an aggressive bully, which is what China is.

What are you recommending outside of denouncement

[prasen9]

I agree with your point about the fact that Chinese tourists could have been stopped and the spread of the virus to other countries could have been slowed down to a trickle.

I do not see China as a problem to be solved. I see the whole world order as a problem to be solved. In the last 20-30 years, the U.S. has been the country that has ravaged other countries unilaterally with illegal wars. These problems are not disconnected. The U.S. created a might-is-right world government. China is reaping the benefits of what the U.S. created and exploited.

I do not have a solution except having a stronger world government. What is your solution to the ravaging of the world's environment by the U.S. and the supporting of the autocrats in Saudi, etc. across the world? If you can stop that, that blueprint can also be applied to stop China. I do not know how to stop any of the mayhem happening in the world.

[Atithee]

Two wrongs do not make a right. The biggest difference between USA and China today is that USA isn’t interested in expanding its territory. Nor is it in the business of making indentured economic slaves. Yes, its policies and conduct is questionable too, but it’s hardly designed to be at the cost of other countries’ economic decimation. Make no mistake, USA looks out for its own benefits, but the collateral damage is low or at least not the underlying motive. There is certainly no overt (or covert) territorial expansion aspirations.

P.S. Prasen, what’s a world government? What does it look like? Is it like the song “Imagine” by Lennon?

[prasen9]

The above post is so bizarre that I do not know whether we live in the same universe or not. The U.S. is the only country right now that occupies Iraq and Afghanistan and did that by force. I do not know of any other country in the last 20 years or so that just bulldozed sovereign nations and occupied them. China has a long way to go before it can even come close to the U.S. with respect to atrocities abroad.

Breaking a treaty unilaterally and being non-compliant to the agreed upon agreement between Iran, the U.S. has directly been involved in essentially killing Iranian civilians. PKB used to post about the number of people who die when your GDP shrinks by 1%. You can call it collateral damage but there is nothing collateral about it. It is a direct dagger to the heart of the Iranian people. If there was any world law and order, unilateral breaking of treaties would not have been allowed. I cannot sign an contract with a bank and then say, hey, I do not like it, I will stop making payments. The U.S. could break the treaty and be non-compliant because there is no enforcement mechanism in the world. A stronger U.N. based law and order system would help.

The U.S. is not in the business of making economic slaves. Omg!!! This is the most laughable thing I have heard on this forum. The whole U.S. foreign policy has been to make economic slaves for a long, long time.

A world government would be like any national government. We all elect representatives. They vote and decide on world policies. We have a world court, where we can appeal any atrocities, etc. and policies. Etc.

Sorry, I do not condone to the might-is-right jungle-raj that we have now. Yes, it is hard to imagine that we will have a just government in our lifetimes and that is a pie-in-the-sky but that does not mean that we have to accept the might-is-right, I will attack anyone and kill anyone and nobody can hold our military accountable jungle raj.

The short answer is think EU governance with some more teeth - worldwide. The U.S. is the major opponent to that and prefers jungle-raj.

[Atithee]

Prasen, the only reason you find almost everything that doesn’t conform to your viewpoint bizarre, laughable, OMG worthy etc. is because you refuse to take your blinders off. I recommend trying it once in a while.

No point extending the argument here or even providing a rebuttal.

[prasen9]

Happy to take my blinders off if you provide the evidence.

I have provided proof of the US holding other sovereign countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) using its army. The Iraqis wanted the US military to leave. It refuses to do so. If you call day night, there is nothing I can do to disabuse your views. The US occupations in the last 20 years has no parallels in what the Chinese are doing. Please provide evidence of countries China is holding using its military and then I will be glad to take my so-called blinders off.

Apart from this and the Irani civilian deaths, the U.S. supported Saudi Arabia militarily to kill innocent civilians in Yemen. That is another catastrophe. The pot cannot really call the kettle black.

Russia is holding Crimea, parts of Georgia, etc.

There is no world government. Basically, what we have is called "gundagiri" (hooliganism). Whoever has a powerful military can do whatever they want. The weaker countries suffer. China is only following the footsteps of the U.S. I am not saying two wrongs make a right. China is wrong. I am saying that this is nothing new. This is the world order the U.S. created by unilaterally using its might, destroying the U.N., refusing and reducing the international courts, etc.

There has been a lot of good work done on world governance and there are lots of good people who can set up one. Your post was taking a potshot at world governance. It is a serious idea. If your knowledge of world governance ends and begins in a song, then there is not much to say. See here for starters. World Governance There are many forms and many works that have been done.

In some sense, I want China to do whatever the U.S. and Russia have been doing. If one party breaks the law and goes scott-free, then we won't see a change. Perhaps China doing the plundering that the U.S. and Russia were doing will bring everyone to the table to actually have some international laws with some teeth. Otherwise, you will see rogue nations attacking whoever they want whenever they want.

For starters, strengthen the U.N. Remove the apartheid that is veto power in the U.N. Why should only five countries have veto power? Etc.

Happy to have a serious discussion on world governance and take my blinders off. For people whose idea of world governance begins and ends in a Lennon song, there is nothing to discuss.

I have accepted Sin Hombre's views that are different many times. One example is his contention that things could have been better if China declared the virus as present internationally. Though Italy's sewer system tested shows coronavirus from December, 2019 and a French person was found to have coronavirus as early as November 2019, yes, announcing the virus would perhaps have reduced the numbers in Italy. In that I was slightly wrong.

But, when you have nothing but random opinions, then there is no reason to take any blinders off. Happy to change my views based on data, evidence, and solid reasoning. Not taking any blinders off based on random opinions.

[jayakris]

Meanwhile, here is a pretty detailed account of what happened in Galwan valley - 3 separate brawls, outsider Chinese troops & more: Most detailed account of the brutal June 15 Galwan battle (India Today)

[jayakris]

Time for some humor... Pappu called our PM "Surrender Modi"... I thought it was a good pun, though it certainly doesn't apply to Modiji... BJP President JP Nadda turned it back on him, pointing out that "Surender" means King of Gods, so Modi is not only the leader of humans but also of Gods... He wanted Pappu to understand the language of Gods

[Sin Hombre]

I generally support Modi but he has been a disaster when it comes to China.

He has had a policy of appeasement towards them, and this had led to a ballooning of trade deficit and constant intrusions and building up of Chinese military on the LAC.

[Omkara]

Time for some humor... Pappu called our PM "Surrender Modi"... I thought it was a good pun, though it certainly doesn't apply to Modiji... BJP President JP Nadda turned it back on him, pointing out that "Surender" means King of Gods, so Modi is not only the leader of humans but also of Gods... He wanted Pappu to understand the language of Gods

A good joke wasted. This current government is nothing but a joke of late. Will soon replace pappu jokes if things continue this way.