Lok Sabha elections 2019

As we had often come back to discussing economic benefits/impact of sports I thought it was about time for an economic discussion forum.
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prasen9
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by prasen9 »

The number of toilets built by the NDA was less than that of the UPA. If we consider the same amount of time, four years, the NDA was about 50% faster. However, they also spent about 3-4 times per toilet at about the same goods. Essentially, the corrupt regime used that to loot a lot of money from the government or loot more money from the government than the UPA thiefs did. That stolen money could have been better spent in education and infrastructure. The UPA may have taken one or two more years than the NDA to complete the job but would have done it at substantially lower costs. There is no evidence to say that the product was any way different. Of course, when I let people steal more money and ask them to do things faster, they will do it.

Now, you have to really marvel at the PR. The PR makes it seem that Modi went to all the villages in India and put up the toilets on his own. Never mind that the projects were started and more toilets were put in by the previous governments than this one. Elections are won by PR. And, as Trump shows and Modi knew that, you just need to declare that all vilagges have toilets even though that may actually not be the case. I hope the rest of the parties learn this. Not the lying part but the effective PR part. The reason I want a healthy opposition is because in a democracy a vibrant clash of ideas always results in a healthy democracy. Who was it that said, I forget the name and am too lazy to look up, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." These people are already totally corrupt but I am hoping a vigilant opposition will prevent absolute corruption. As shown by the language-forcing issue, we need a vibrant opposition to stop the excesses of this (or any) government.

Here is some data about the facts. Rural development fact check. The fact is that in these aspects the NDA has done things faster than the UPA. However, the flat out lying and misrepresenting of facts by government entities is deplorable. I suppose that is modern politics. Who cares what the reality is, say whatever your followers will believe. While the NDA has done better in these aspects, it has done abysmally in others especially when it comes to the environment and related public health.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by Atithee »

See the map in this article. It says something else although the source seems to be the government itself so it must be taken with more than a pinch full of nose!

We can find articles stating all kinds of data is my point. There is no one source of truth other than your personal observations (hopefully lack thereof during your own visits).

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-in-india
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by prasen9 »

That is based on the government PR machine, which has flat-out lied. The fact check article I provided gives the source of the data that contradicts the false claims by this government. Now, it is possible that the fact checker is wrong but at least the fact checker and the independent verifier below were third parties.

Here is an article on independent verification. NARSS. By mid-March 2018, 77% of the households had toilets and 23% did not. Of course, any amount of data from independent verifications or fact-check sites will not prevent the false propaganda by the PR PM and his psychophants.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by prasen9 »

Atithee wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:10 am We can find articles stating all kinds of data is my point. There is no one source of truth other than your personal observations (hopefully lack thereof during your own visits).
By this token, we should not claim that Modi built all the toilets by himself and is the next incarnation of the god-of-your-choice until we verify these. The problem is that my visits are very sparse. I can provide anecdotal counter-example of there not being 100% toilet availability in all villages. But, my providing one counter-example in a whole country is not enough. I would gladly take 98% coverage. The bigger problem is that only 77% houselolds have access to toilets as it was in 2018. Hopefully, we have made a lot of progress in the last year. I bank on fact-check sites and independent verifiers. If they are wrong, who knows. I have not verified that the world is not flat either. We all trust some source at the end. We can only argue which source is trustworthy and which is not and then go with what data we have.

My broader point is that one can take up a small issue or three and do well in that. Or just declare victory irrespective of reality. However, real social progress involves a lot of things. Look at the End of Childhood Index. India is ranked 113 or so. We are behind even Sri Lanka. Whataboutism by saying that the UPA did not do much either is not useful to me. I do not care about the UPA. I am interested in progress. And by all objective social progress indictors, progress has been very slow and incremental and not leaps and bounds as the propagandists will tell you. Again, my own limited observations are in line with this.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by Atithee »

Not once have I said anything about Modi or NDA vs. UPA. It doesn’t matter to me who started what and who did more. When I look out in the morning from my train window, I just wish I can enjoy the morning beauty and not the defecation. Maybe we can not do much about ODF but we should not form and perpetuate a one-sided view due to fundamental aversion to a person or a government. Perhaps this article is more informative although I haven’t read it fully yet.

https://www.thehindu.com/thread/politic ... 191578.ece
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by prasen9 »

Atithee wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:52 am When I look out in the morning from my train window, I just wish I can enjoy the morning beauty and not the defecation.
For me it is a bigger issue. It is a matter of public health.
... we should not form and perpetuate a one-sided view due to fundamental aversion to a person or a government.
Fully agree. However, I actually see a different problem here. We should not form and perpetuate a one-sided view due to psychophant-ic worshipping of a person or government. I have said that the NDA government has built things 50% faster and that has to be applauded. However, the Modi-bootlickers and the Bhakts in the country cannot come to accept that the UPA government built a substantial portion of these toilets and did it at a much cheaper cost to the exchequer. I know why. The reason is that they want to influence the ill-informed to pull a fast one and get their votes.
That is what political parties and their chamchas do and have been doing since eternity. I do want a balanced, truthful depiction of things.

I have never said it is an easy problem. It is extremely hard. Changing people's behavior and bringing lasting social change is hard. Any progress is better than no progress. Faster progress is better than slower progress. Progress that allows stealing a lot of money is not however but we have a long way to go wrt reducing theft from the exchequer. All I want is people to call a spade a spade and if any of my data is false and someone shows me that, I will accept that I was wrong.
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GHMC Elections

Post by usaindia »

Looks like BJP slowly opening up in Telangana, went from 4 seats to almost 44
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 556778.cms
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by PKBasu »

Yes, BJP ended up with 48 seats in Greater Hyderabad Municipal Corporation elections, in an unusually high turnout. TRS won a plurality, with 55 seats, and the AIMIM came third with 44. Congress was reduced to just 2 seats, and looks to be in terminal decline across the country.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by jayakris »

If Congress is in this kind of decline, who will be the opposition now? It is like there is BJP and nothing else at the national level. Are we to expect that BJP will split into a lot of outfits like Shiv Sena in various parts of the country. Parties that are pro-Hindu but not BJP?

I am quite pro-BJP but it is not a good thing to not have some sort of an opposition at the national level. And it had better not be the senseless opportunist communists.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by sameerph »

True, Jay. Congress is the only national party we have apart from BJP. And it is having a leadership vaccum. And nobody seems to have guts to take on Gandhi family and try to take over the leadership which looks like the only thing which can rejuvenete Congress.

Some decent opposition is always needed. I have also voted for BJP and Modi in last 2 elections. But, just feel of late a lot of BJP hardcore supporters ( not so much the top leadership) are getting too arrogant feeling nobody is there to question them. This some the same kind of arrogance which Congress brass at one point of time.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by prasen9 »

jayakris wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:26 pm it had better not be the senseless opportunist communists.
As an opposition, having the senseless opportunist communists fight the evil fundamentalist fascists is a good idea. You start negotiating from the other end and end up in the middle. Of course, I want neither to be at the helm.

We should forget about the Congress and form a third front that gets into sensible electoral alliances including with the Congress where they can. The true realization is if all the aspirants do some real math about how to get over 50% of the votes on seat by seat basis and not divide up the votes as they do and allow the BJP to get all these seats with less than 40% of the electorate supporting them. Of course, with fewer candidates, some of the 3rd candidates votes will move over to the BJP, but we need to have only two strong candidates go against each other in the elections. To the extent it can be done. Otherwise, there will be no opposition.

The true solution is ranked-choice voting (also known as instant runoff) but there is no chance in hell that the BJP that is enjoying the spoils now will let that happen.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by usaindia »

Southern states like AP still has some opposition.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by jayakris »

usaindia wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:16 pm Southern states like AP still has some opposition.
Same in Kerala. Actually there is no BJP that wins any seats in anything in Kerala. Congress survives in Kerala, and will most probably beat CPM in the next elections. Both parties are anti-Hindu and the Hindu majority in Kerala knows it too, but they won't vote for BJP :)
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by prasen9 »

I think religious fundamentalism is more prevalent in the north or at least religious politics is more prevalent in the north than in the south. So, it will take some time for the religious movement to make its mark in the south and maybe the east too although they are making headway in the east again perhaps because of the perceived TINA factor.

Co-located with the religious populism is the Hindi-imposition agenda. That runs very well in the north and is opposed in the south. So the party will have difficulties making headway in the south while running on their pro-Hindi, anti-other-languages stance.

The key will perhaps lies in economics. If this government can make real changes to people's lives, then perhaps the areas that are not as religious or Hindi-lovers will be interested to overlook these issues for the sake of economic gains. If they are just like other parties wrt the bottom-line (see GDP growth, human development indexes), then they will find it harder to make headway in the south.

Anyway, political fortunes of parties usually go up and then down and runs in cycles. Unless you are totally inept such as the scions of the Gandhi-Nehru family these days, then you just go down.
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Re: Lok Sabha elections 2019

Post by usaindia »

It is becoming interesting at least in Telangana BJP may get lucky with ant incumbency in 2023 .Now if TRS ties with MIM for Mayor ,you can see easily.
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