India scraps its two largest rupee notes in shocking anti-corruption move

[prasen9]

With respect to corruption, please read the definition quoted in a post above. I got it from Google define. Corruption does not need to be about money. Corruption can be about power. Modi is corrupt in that he has used dishonest means to acquire power for himself.

[prasen9]

To top it, he seems fearless in making decisions

So was George W. Bush. I want my head of state to be precise and calculating and weighing all sides before coming to a decision. I do not like people who jump off cliffs. I am more of an Obama fan, although not fully. I do not like his continuing the wars abroad.

[sameerph]

I am really not sure where this number of 70 deaths from this has come from ? Are there any details supporting this ? Some of the opposition leaders are giving different numbers like 100 or whatever they think. Don't tell me that 100 died while standing in the queues.

And to talk of people support, the result of local body elections in Maharashtra which were held just a couple of days back came out and BJP has won far more seats than last time around and this was all in rural Maharashtra where Congress and NCP have been ruling since years.

I know that these are only local level polls and many other factors go in but still indicates that there is no great dissatisfaction in people about demonetisation else it would have showed up.

[prasen9]

I do not know, but, it is not just people standing in lines. I think it includes people who could not go to a hospital because they did not have the cash, people who could not get medicines because they did not have cash, etc. Again, I do not know, but, I am guessing from what vague articles I read on the web.

[Mugundan]

Going by reports in papers and on TV, more than 70 people have died in incidents related to hardships caused by demonetization. Even if we believe that only half of this could have been due to 'note ban', it is still a huge price that families have paid because of this so-called attempt to make the country "clean".
Among the incidents I saw on TV were one involving a child whose dead body was carried around by a man in front of people queuing up in front of a bank. He explained that he had come to the place on two consecutive days to get money for his ailing child but failed. The child died without getting medical assistance.
I also saw a TV report that explained how a man in Gujarat committed suicide after failing to arrange money for his daughter's wedding. The report said that he had been promised some loans by friends who backed out after Nov 8. The report quoted his son, another relative, neighbours and friends. Didn't look as though it was done for the sake of media.
There were several reports of people dying of heart attacks while standing in queues. May be some of them, if not all, must have been because of some ongoing heart condition. But obviously the strain of going through this futile exercise of standing in queues for hours together finally contributed to their demise.
We can expect such stories where some deaths may be wrongly attributed to the turmoil caused by demonetization.
Comparable to deaths and grief are also stories of how poor are coping with unemployment and hunger. If we have to believe that the majority of people are supporting the move since some opinion polls including one by PM said so, there should be no reason why we should not believe the stories about deaths and also about the unimaginable hardship of people, especially from the lower strata of society.
Now that a second amnesty on tax evasion has been granted, we have to see how much would eventually be gained by this exercise so as to benefit the poor.

[Mugundan]

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/15 ... s-suicide/

[kujo]

thanks Mugu for that link.

typically you have "innocent until proven otherwise". Here, you have "guilty until proven innocent by standing in bank queues"!!

You normally enforce laws in a manner that would rather let go of criminals than assign guilt / hardship to an innocent. Here, you are punishing the innocent ( I call standing in bank queues - for hours together, jostling for space as a form of punishment) in order to potentially catch a few criminals.

@sameer It is not just a case of people dying in queues, it is also a case of people dying in private hospitals when procedures are required - the supplies are often not stocked inside hospitals, but have to be bought using cash. Cash notes that are at a premium now! Don't say, go to govt hospitals. You know, as well as any in this forum, how well run govt. hospitals are and especially now that the only place where your old notes are valid is at those hospitals - you can imagine the queues there as well. Regardless, surgical supplies are always a problem.

[kujo]

Status update:

Of the 14.18 trillion old notes, 8.45 trillion have been deposited into the banks - as of Nov 27, 2016. according to RBI. that is about 60% done so far. As well, 2.18 trillion had been withdrawn as cash notes, so far.

[arjun2761]

With respect to corruption, please read the definition quoted in a post above. I got it from Google define. Corruption does not need to be about money. Corruption can be about power. Modi is corrupt in that he has used dishonest means to acquire power for himself.

Don't trust everything defined by Google! In the real world, most folks associate corruption with illegimate personal (and family's) financial gain. For example, in a corporation, corruption would be to allocate a contract to a friend. However, corporate leaders doing things to advance their position in the company (even if it ultimately results in greater compensation for them) is considered acceptable office "politics." Many of the things you accuse Modi of doing are simply politics in the ultimate arena for politics (i.e., the political system) and that is the price you pay for democracy.

[gbelday]

The opposition could as well be spinning these stories (about deaths in hospitals etc.). Our media is useless at reporting facts anyway. I am hearing from my friends in Hyderabad that some of the bank managers are “selling” currency for a commission. Now, why someone would pay a commission to get their own money baffles me but that’s the kind of corruption that is so rooted in our country that it’s almost impossible to weed it out.

[PKBasu]

With respect to corruption, please read the definition quoted in a post above. I got it from Google define. Corruption does not need to be about money. Corruption can be about power. Modi is corrupt in that he has used dishonest means to acquire power for himself.

Don't trust everything defined by Google! In the real world, most folks associate corruption with illegimate personal (and family's) financial gain. For example, in a corporation, corruption would be to allocate a contract to a friend. However, corporate leaders doing things to advance their position in the company (even if it ultimately results in greater compensation for them) is considered acceptable office "politics." Many of the things you accuse Modi of doing are simply politics in the ultimate arena for politics (i.e., the political system) and that is the price you pay for democracy.

Absolutely correct! prasen9 is clutching at straws to define normal political ambition/climbing as corruption. Circular argument to say that politics itself is corrupt.

[Mugundan]

The opposition could as well be spinning these stories (about deaths in hospitals etc.). Our media is useless at reporting facts anyway. I am hearing from my friends in Hyderabad that some of the bank managers are “selling” currency for a commission. Now, why someone would pay a commission to get their own money baffles me but that’s the kind of corruption that is so rooted in our country that it’s almost impossible to weed it out.

Even if we were to accept that around 50 per cent of stories related to deaths due to heart attacks while standing in the queues could be exaggerated, the other 50 would not be. The person who carried his dead baby in front of bank (mentioned in my previous post) didn't look as though he was creating a story for the benefit of the media. People around confirmed that he had come previous day too to get money for admitting his ailing child to a hospital. If we start thinking that opposition could be cooking up stories, then what about the ruling party? Can we trust them? When PM and his Cabinet colleagues say "It is only a matter of few days of inconvenience" should we trust them?
Govt has avoided answering several people on TV about the number of notes in circulation and the period by which it expects all the 14 lakh crore worth of currency sucked out of the system to be reintroduced into the system. "There is enough cash available" with banks is a routine refrain even as bank officials admit, off the record,that this could take months.
"Why someone would pay a commission to get their own money?" This sounds incredible to those who are not reeling under the demonetization regime but quite natural to those who are desperate to get money. Either stand in queues all day and perhaps end up with nothing at the end of the day or else manage something by paying a commission, seems to be the logic.
If we create situations where the corrupt can thrive this is what happens. One bank manager and development manager were arrested while trying to manipulate accounts to siphon of Rs 40 crores in new notes for a commission in Delhi. Almost every day there are reports about lakhs of rupees in new notes being confiscated from various parts of the country. When common man is able to manage with great difficulty only a few thousand rupees how others are able to get lakhs? The very corruption which PM wants to root out thrive in this business.
TV channels have done sting operations to show how touts are promising to exchange crores of rupees and make it legit. Our media has shown government-oriented stories as well as true stories about suffering of people and about touts and agents.
Whether at the end of this all, Govt manages to at least wipe out part of the black money for the BENEFIT OF THE POOR, is anybody's guess. Till then we have to suffer. For those who have credit/debit cards and online banking facility and experience (like I am), the problem is minimal but cash is required for several everyday needs still.
There are reports that indicate that from tomorrow onwards people expect banks to go dry since the pay day rush begins. The banks have been going dry any case within few hours of opening at several places. They have been giving out far less than the Rs 24,000 a week promised, too.

[kujo]

The opposition could as well be spinning these stories (about deaths in hospitals etc.). Our media is useless at reporting facts anyway.

Well pretty much everyone is spinning stories.... I agree our media is useless in reporting facts.

But hear this, I can corroborate one death in a private hospital on Nov 9, due to this demonetization. And it is not even listed among many deaths that were mentioned in the article that Mugu quoted.

[gbelday]

The opposition could as well be spinning these stories (about deaths in hospitals etc.). Our media is useless at reporting facts anyway.

Well pretty much everyone is spinning stories.... I agree our media is useless in reporting facts.

But hear this, I can corroborate one death in a private hospital on Nov 9, due to this demonetization. And it is not even listed among many deaths that were mentioned in the article that Mugu quoted.

Every death (that could be avoided) is sad and unfortunate. Is the situation so dire that people can't use checks (after depositing their old currency) or get some kind of credit? Are the doctors and hospitals so heartless? This isn't a question for you, I am saying it loud! I guess it points to another fundamental problem with our society in general.

About hospital deaths, my sister used to work in one of the government hospitals in Hyderabad and I would hear stories about patients dying while waiting for treatment (because of the sheer volume that they couldn't get to on time). Now, I would have loved for opposition or media to raise such issues that persisted for years.

[prasen9]

They have. Here are a couple: Article Article 2