Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by jayakris »

Dinesh wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:33 am Pathetic sportsmanship, as usual from this guy. This kind of repetitive abhorrent behavior makes Indian tennis fans like myself to even stop following his career altogether. And the guy can’t even put together a decent argument in English (… if you can talk, I can also talk?!)
Yeah, I think RamK was trying to say that he didn't mean any of it as insulting JJ but that it was for self-motivation. But he doesn't know how to put that idea properly to others, and then goes into this kind of "if you can talk, I can talk too" and all those school kid arguments. Have seen this before too. The sad thing is that RamK is not at all a bad guy. He just does not know court etiquette (or has decided to disregard it in favor of somehow motivating himself to continue his career)... And worse still, like you said, he is terrible in arguing his case. He comes across only as whining and going round and round rather than making the point he wants to make.

I continue to feel bad for RamK. He is actually crying out for help (he may not know it) to get over the negativity that pervades him, but where will that help and advice come from?


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

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jayakris wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 am [R2] Ramkumar Ramanathan (IND,289) l. (Q) Jason Jung (TPE,399), 26 60 40 Ret.
Jay, will you kindly change the l to a d ? I sort of was confused --- had not read any of the text, wanted to find out the score. "l" typically would be for lost to, no? "d" for defeated?

[Sorry. Done. Mod, Jay]


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

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I went back and looked at the service return called out by the Ump at 39:12 (in the video/ link above) at 1-4, 30-30, in the first set. It seemed an inch out at the baseline near our end on the video. JJ had immediately shown the out with his hand too, as he was looking right at it. The ump called it out. RamK walks up and is complaining that it was "the far side corner and you called it?" (like the ump can't see it, while RamK is much farther away and can?)... I mean there is no logic in his argument there. Fine, you argued. At least move on. Plus, RamK forgot that this was calling JJ's integrity to question too, as he had demonstrably shown that shot to be out (and unless a player blatantly does it multiple times, you need to show that you took his word on one point like that where he was right there looking at it). Now JJ is about to serve and RamK is positioned to receive, and when JJ was about to toss the ball, RamK suddenly starts talking to the umpire and JJ had to stop and redo the serve. Can RamK be any worse in court etiquette? I am sure that RamK had nothing against JJ and was not thinking of him, but he was so insensitive about how upset the other player was becoming. Worse still, why the hell is RamK letting that call come into his mind at all when he is about to receive serve? Sure enough, RamK hit the return 10 feet out. 1-5. Now he walks up into the court and starts talking to the ump, "Are you sure?" about a call 2 points ago. The ump goes, "if I was not sure, i wouldn't call it. Shut up!".

I don't think I have heard an umpire tell a player "shut up" like that. That is so rude... but for once, such rudeness was required. RamK had to take it like a mouse too. It all looks so bad on RamK. And it makes me so sad.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by prashanthm »

hhhhmmm, a win in the books... but probably left the court with a heavy heart....


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

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prashanthm wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:32 am but probably left the court with a heavy heart....
I don't think so. I think Ramk's mind is warped. He truly thinks he is right. All the time. And, so he perhaps left feeling frustrated that people are not listening to him when obviously the ball was in. I mean he saw it in his own eyes and these other guys are just blind or cheating or biased ... I have not watched him much but I think that is what he sort of thinks or portrays. He is incapable of understanding that sometimes his eyes may be wrong too.

Anyway, I suppose we are all flawed. Maybe not Ramk-style crazy and flawed. But, nonetheless. As Jesus said or was purported to have said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

I was perhaps not this level psycho but I had shades of that initially when I was maybe 14 and younger, after which I started to accept that maybe my eyes are sometimes wrong in their perception. Some of that self-righteousness still remains when I argue here as the oldtimers have seen here too ;-)


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by jayakris »

I think these two guys had practiced together, and were friends. At one point during the match, when some racket-shaking by RamK while receiving serve, upset JJ, and RamK said he had done that all his life. JJ then was saying to the ump,"when we practiced, he was never doing that". Now, Jason Jung also seemed like an emotional and sensitive type and he should have moved on too. He didn't look too good, whining there, either. Anyway, at the end of the match, the video continues and we can hear the two guys' conversation. RamK was saying, "I did that for myself", and JJ goes, "when I hit into the net?". Jason saying, "I thought you were a good guy" and all that. Basically, RamK's drama just upsets all these players.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

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Very soon, Ramk will be the first guy ever to play doubles on his own ;-) Will they use the rules that we use in our amateur play? Doubles court for the singles person and the singles court for the doubles people. :-)


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by PKBasu »

Nice to have Ramkumar in a Challenger singles QF, although the gamesmanship issues are getting to worrying levels. Clearly RamK played well in the second set (as Jay's commentary suggests). Onward and upward!

Ramkumar/Arjun are down 46 34 in the doubles QF. Hope they can fight back and win it.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by sameerph »

No. They could not fight back and lost in QF.

At Kobe Challenger 80, Japan

[QF] (1) Arjun Kadhe (IND)/ Ramkumar Ramanathan (IND) l. Marc Polmans (AUS) / Jason Taylor (AUS) 46 46

This pair has fared poorly in this challenger series.

So, in singles,

[QF] Ramkumar Ramanathan (IND,289) vs. (7) Yosuke Watanuki (JPN,196)

Watanuki had reached final in last week's challenger.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by prashanthm »

prasen9 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:44 am
prashanthm wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:32 am but probably left the court with a heavy heart....
I don't think so. I think Ramk's mind is warped. He truly thinks he is right. All the time. And, so he perhaps left feeling frustrated that people are not listening to him when obviously the ball was in. I mean he saw it in his own eyes and these other guys are just blind or cheating or biased ... I have not watched him much but I think that is what he sort of thinks or portrays. He is incapable of understanding that sometimes his eyes may be wrong too.

Anyway, I suppose we are all flawed. Maybe not Ramk-style crazy and flawed. But, nonetheless. As Jesus said or was purported to have said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

I was perhaps not this level psycho but I had shades of that initially when I was maybe 14 and younger, after which I started to accept that maybe my eyes are sometimes wrong in their perception. Some of that self-righteousness still remains when I argue here as the oldtimers have seen here too ;-)
Ha ha, you changed all that, most of it anyway, at 14 years.... WOW! That's inhuman... :D

However, my usage of the 'heavy heart' was intended towards his block at the end of the match. Irrespective of the fact that it was due to his frustration or realization, the heart still feels heavy. More often than not, people come out of altercations worse than before they have had it, irrespective of the outcome. RamK probably needs someone like me to grill that into him, but I am sure he won't listen to me. Someone else who is close to him can take that message to him, but again it won't work if doesn't accept that there is something he needs to change or improve. That's the first big step, the acceptance, anyone needs to get on the path of fixing it...

But I agree with all of those here who said that he has to make this point and move on. If not the subjective 'heavy heart' thing that feels one gutted or rotted, there could also be an objective path based on which he should stop these talks. How many times have people been able to cajole the ump into overturning the point based on an argument? I guess, very few, if any at all. So, he needs to understand at least one of these thought processes and get a move on.... It'll make him less nervous and calmer and may get him better results - who knows?


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by Atithee »

^^^
@prashanthm—loved your post.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

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Atithee wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:37 pm ^^^
@prashanthm—loved your post.
:D, thanks for taking the extra effort to appreciate it. Much appreciated :D

Ever since I came back to the forum after being inactive for years, I have been craving to see a 'react' button for posts that I loved. Probably spoiled by the social media apps, WhatsApp, and what not :rofl:

Mods/Dhruv - A basic search on google didn't yield anything of that sort corresponding to phpBB. Something you would have more access to check on?


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by jayakris »

prashanthm wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:20 pmBut I agree with all of those here who said that he has to make this point and move on. If not the subjective 'heavy heart' thing that feels one gutted or rotted, there could also be an objective path based on which he should stop these talks.
I am with you on this. Typically those who get into arguments because they have just not been taught or advised to think clearly and argue logically/tactfully, or those who are simply not articulate but had learned to "just talk" to cover up for talking deficiencies (which may possibly be the case with RamK) end up with a heavy heart after arguments, whether they win or lose the argument. If they are well-meaning people, that is. They would know that they just didn't make the point, that they picked up an enemy or lost a friend, etc. This is all bad karma.

Maturation in people that happens at late teenage years and early adulthood by age 25 sometimes requires mentors and gurus and good peers who will teach one to avoid such negativity in oneself. We all remember our college years and pointless arguments and conflicts from which we all learned better behavior. From my amateur psychologist vantage point, it looks like RamK still has some issues like this. So a good guy (which people used to say about him, but probably no longer do, because of the continued "bad guy" behavior) simply just falls into a bad spiral of negativity.

Basically, it is all bad karma. It is just bringing in extraneous thoughts and troubled feelings in one's mind when one should be focusing only on the fuzzy yellow sphere one needs to whack.

"Heavy heart" is probably not the word. "Troubled heart", maybe. Bad Karma, precisely.
How many times have people been able to cajole the ump into overturning the point based on an argument? I guess, very few, if any at all. So, he needs to understand at least one of these thought processes and get a move on.... It'll make him less nervous and calmer and may get him better results - who knows?
Totally so. It is so damn simple. And easy to see, logically. I have no idea why RamK doesn't see this. Actually there are many other players who pointlessly argue with umpires, but that is usually just in the heat of the moment and they all know that it is not of any use. So they don't keep on going. With RamK, it is like he doesn't even know that this is of no point. Because it is never getting better. Like nobody has ever told him. Maybe nobody has, for all I know. Isn't there anybody in his family or coaching circles, who can tell him? He can't be that dumb to see the logic.

Again, just see how his mind wanders after positioning himself to receive serve at 1-5 30-40 yesterday, when he suddenly started talking to the umpire (while still in his crouched position with the racket to receive the serve, and not even really turning his head, which was still looking at JJ about to serve). He was in tennis playing mode, but his mind was totally somewhere else. I have never seen a tennis player's mind wandering that late when the ball is about to be in play, to an earlier line call. A 28 year old man with 12 years of pro experience, top-10 wins and near-top-100 ranking once, is doing this?

Somebody needs to talk to him. Like I said, this is all his "crying out for help" to get out of the negativity that pervades him - even if RamK doesn't realize it.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by jayakris »

prashanthm wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:51 pm Ever since I came back to the forum after being inactive for years, I have been craving to see a 'react' button for posts that I loved. Probably spoiled by the social media apps, WhatsApp, and what not :rofl:

Mods/Dhruv - A basic search on google didn't yield anything of that sort corresponding to phpBB. Something you would have more access to check on?
Me too. Would love to have that. May need to wait for Dhruv to make an appearance. It has been quite a while since he has appeared with a post or a message to us Mods (though his invisible presence is there, as the forum has rarely if ever gone down even for a few minutes and he has been the sole owner and sys-admin for nearly two decades). Will pass it on when we can, to Dhruv.


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Re: Asia-Australia ATP Challengers 2022

Post by jayakris »

Prajnesh just made the main draw list for the Yoakkaichi challenger in Japan net week. So, back to Japan again after 2 weeks in the US.

Mukund is 2 out at Yokkaichi, and I suppose will make it if special exempt spots clear. RamK was in from the beginning.