Australian Open 2018

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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by PKBasu »

jai_in_canada wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:26 pm
Tennys Sandgren not only has a perfect tennis name, he's also from Tennessee. Which explains his views. Do you know why there are so many unsolved murders in Tennessee? Because they all have the same DNA .... and they have no dental records. Enough said! :p

As for John Isner, apparently he puts his University degree on his dashboard.... so he can park in handicapped parking! Ouch! Was that a low blow? Then again, with Isner they're all low blows!

They're both good ol' Southern boys! They can't help their brain cells! Or their Sun-burnt necks - even when they're not playing in the Aussie summer! They're not to be taken seriously for their viewpoints on the human condition. As tennis players, they're pretty darn good.
Tennys Sandgren has actually only become "pretty darn good" in the past half year -- well after he had turned 26. He had never been ranked in the top-100 before October 2017. So he was a pure, classic Challenger journeyman throughout his career until that point. He is now in a purple patch, that really began only after Pune (where he lost rather tamely to Gilles Simon in R1, 16 46). At Auckland, he made the main draw by getting through 2 rounds of qualifying (losing a close three setter to Chung Hyeon, who he will play again at the QF stage of the AO). He has totally over-achieved at Melbourne, helped in R2 by the fact that Wawrinka had too little in the tank: I saw Stan struggle against Berankis in R1 too, although he managed to dig deep and come back from a break down in the fourth set after losing the 3rd tamely.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by Rajiv »

PKBasu wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:33 am

Tennys Sandgren has actually only become "pretty darn good" in the past half year -- well after he had turned 26. He had never been ranked in the top-100 before October 2017. So he was a pure, classic Challenger journeyman throughout his career until that point. He is now in a purple patch, that really began only after Pune (where he lost rather tamely to Gilles Simon in R1, 16 46).
By strange coincidence ever since I saw Kyle Edmond , Heyong Chung , Tennys Sandergreen , Radu Albot at the 2015 HongKong Challenger, I have followed this quartet

During that time they were ranked lower or similar to Saki , Yuki , Somdev , Ram
Somdev and probably Saki too is finished as player , Ram has shown some credible improvement whereas Yuki has been languishing in mid range without making a notable breakthrough like the quartet and it is frustrating to see those players of the same league and standard make such a big spurt in their game.

The major difference I feel which separates the quartet and our guys is that all of them even that time had travelling coach with them even though they were ranked lower and that itself is the key to the continuous improvement in their game and massive strides they have taken .
Ofcourse Heyong Chung is the recipient of maximum help in terms of Corporate and Association support as even 3 years ago had an travelling entourage of 5 people with him , 2 coaches , physio , brother , father travelling with him even for a challenger , whereas our guys have to mostly fend for themselves and are languishing, stagnating whereas the players in question are in the big league all due to constant and continuous support when they are on tour.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by knarayen »

Rajiv wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:27 am
PKBasu wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:33 am

Tennys Sandgren has actually only become "pretty darn good" in the past half year -- well after he had turned 26. He had never been ranked in the top-100 before October 2017. So he was a pure, classic Challenger journeyman throughout his career until that point. He is now in a purple patch, that really began only after Pune (where he lost rather tamely to Gilles Simon in R1, 16 46).
By strange coincidence ever since I saw Kyle Edmond , Heyong Chung , Tennys Sandergreen , Radu Albot at the 2015 HongKong Challenger, I have followed this quartet

During that time they were ranked lower or similar to Saki , Yuki , Somdev , Ram
Somdev and probably Saki too is finished as player , Ram has shown some credible improvement whereas Yuki has been languishing in mid range without making a notable breakthrough like the quartet and it is frustrating to see those players of the same league and standard make such a big spurt in their game.

The major difference I feel which separates the quartet and our guys is that all of them even that time had travelling coach with them even though they were ranked lower and that itself is the key to the continuous improvement in their game and massive strides they have taken .
Ofcourse Heyong Chung is the recipient of maximum help in terms of Corporate and Association support as even 3 years ago had an travelling entourage of 5 people with him , 2 coaches , physio , brother , father travelling with him even for a challenger , whereas our guys have to mostly fend for themselves and are languishing, stagnating whereas the players in question are in the big league all due to constant and continuous support when they are on tour.
I agree. Having coach, physio, support from friends/family on tour can make all the difference. How do Gopi and the badminton team do it? Can the tennis players not get some tips from Gopi in this regard? It doesn't hurt to observe and learn from a another sport does it?
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by PKBasu »

Yes, I was just about to marvel at how Kyle Edmund has propelled himself upward from the Challenger level -- and has now catapulted to the semifinal of a Slam. He really made the breakthrough to the top-100 two years ago (out of the Challenger orbit), but he made the transition a permanent one. Most importantly, two years ago he was only 21. So I don't think he is really in the Yuki/RamK league (although I wrongly thought he was, because he used to play the likes of Yuki and Somdev in the Challengers) -- Edmund is a significant step ahead. Also, he is clearly inspired by what he (surprisingly) achieved in the Davis Cup, and really hasn't looked back since those achievements.

I agree that having an entourage (at a minimum, a travelling coach) is essential for Yuki or RamK to progress from current levels. It is a chicken or egg problem though: if you want to have sponsorship support, you have to have demonstrable achievements. Yuki winning the AO junior title at 16.5 was a big deal: that was a big chance to capitalise. He should have played all the Slam juniors that year and next (but played almost none until the next year's Youth Olympiad and US Open). I still don't understand why the heck that happened. In badminton, Gopichand and Prakash had world-class achievements, so they were a bit more able to gather in the sponsors. In tennis, AITA has been awful and hasn't helped the players ever; but with the exception of Sania (who found GVK before GVK became a household name in national infrastructure building), none of our other tennis players have been able to find a solid sponsor who believed in them. (Yuki had the Mahindras for a bit, but got injured immediately, which is a killer of such relationships; similarly with Karan and Dewan Housing).
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by sameerph »

PKBasu wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:35 am Yuki winning the AO junior title at 16.5 was a big deal: that was a big chance to capitalise. He should have played all the Slam juniors that year and next (but played almost none until the next year's Youth Olympiad and US Open). I still don't understand why the heck that happened.
Yuki played the US open in the same year when he won the AO junior title (2009). He did not play French open and Wimbledon that year. He instead played a lot of futures and went on to win 6 futures titles when he was 17 which is one of the highest in the world. It is really surprising with that kind of talent showing, with or without AITA support he was not able to garner sponsors at that stage.

Apart from AITA, I would partly blame him and his team too for perhaps not showing enough drive to try to attract sponsors at that stage. I am not sure if they had any clear plan like done by say Vishnu-Bala recently. At least RamK or Sumit were able to get some support which enable to train abroad regularly unlike sporadic trips to NBTA by Yuki.

I hope Yuki/RamK show some results at ATP level this year which can possibly attract a few sponsors.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by rajitghosh »

A very fundamental question. When Krishnan-Jaidip-Premjit played in the 50s and 60s and when Vijay-Anand-Ramesh played in the 70s and 80s who sponsored them? The 1st 3 played in the amateur era but still played a lot abroad. The other 3 played in an era when India's forex was in dire straits and tennis did not have as much money as it has today.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by PKBasu »

In the amateur era, tennis (like most sports) was or the elite. The Indian rupee was also quite overvalued at the time, so for upper middle class people like Krish, Naresh Kumar, Jaidip and Premjit, it wasn’t that difficult to travel abroad. Plus, AITA was probably less corrupt in those days. My theory!

Vijay and Anand came of age, as did Jasjit Singh and Sashi Menon, before FERA (1973). That enabled them to predate the era of really scarce foreign exchange. After 1973 it was much more difficult, and the pro era was in full swing too. Ramesh Krishnan, in retrospect, had it toughest — and there wasn’t even an ATP event in India in his time (and very few Challengers). But he made it to the Top-100 when he was 19, so it was easier to make a living as a pro. I remember he also had free travel sponsorship from Air India. Others before him must have had that too.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by rajitghosh »

PKBasu wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am In the amateur era, tennis (like most sports) was or the elite. The Indian rupee was also quite overvalued at the time, so for upper middle class people like Krish, Naresh Kumar, Jaidip and Premjit, it wasn’t that difficult to travel abroad. Plus, AITA was probably less corrupt in those days. My theory!

Vijay and Anand came of age, as did Jasjit Singh and Sashi Menon, before FERA (1973). That enabled them to predate the era of really scarce foreign exchange. After 1973 it was much more difficult, and the pro era was in full swing too. Ramesh Krishnan, in retrospect, had it toughest — and there wasn’t even an ATP event in India in his time (and very few Challengers). But he made it to the Top-100 when he was 19, so it was easier to make a living as a pro. I remember he also had free travel sponsorship from Air India. Others before him must have had that too.
Don't know about the authenticity of the facts. But I read somewhere that Ramanathan Krishnan was sponsored by the Maharaja of Mysore. Naresh Kumar and Premjit Lall were employed by ACC and were sponsored by their employer. I suppose both Jasjit Singh and Sashi Menon may have benefitted from studying in the US as did Mahesh and Somdev in later years.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by Rajiv »

Yes I too read about RK senior's support base from the Maharaja,
The Amritraj's , Royyapa came from a privileged background as Robert Amritraj was a GM of Southern Railway's and Royappa's father a senior ICS/IAS officer and later the all the 3 brothers had free worldwide travel for almost entire career courtesy Air India as PKB pointed out.
Sashi after his Uni scholarship plunged on to the tour and the same time had steady support from AMF Head until his retirement where he was part of the technical committee along with Tim Gullikson , Betty Stove.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by rajitghosh »

Then Yuki should apply to Jet Airways or Air India for free travel. Both these airlines, if we count their partner airlines have good network outside India. It would save him a lot of money.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by S_K_S »

rajitghosh wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 pm Then Yuki should apply to Jet Airways or Air India for free travel. Both these airlines, if we count their partner airlines have good network outside India. It would save him a lot of money.
If only it was so easy. I think it's all about who you know and having the right connections.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by jai_in_canada »

S_K_S wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:58 pm
rajitghosh wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 pm Then Yuki should apply to Jet Airways or Air India for free travel. Both these airlines, if we count their partner airlines have good network outside India. It would save him a lot of money.
If only it was so easy. I think it's all about who you know and having the right connections.
Unfortunately, in India, it is still very regionally parochial! When Sania Mirza was still in her mid-teens she got excellent support from GVK Industries ... primarily because she was from Hyderabad and GVK was (is) based in Hyderabad. I believe that she still continues to be a brand ambassador for GVK. Still much kudos to GVK for supporting her, for I believe she may have struggled to achieve the success that she did if it weren't for that support. Mind you, her Dad being a journo, and thus being well-connected, also likely helped her gain a lot of support.

And unfortunately, in India, only AFTER an athlete has achieved some success politicians fall all over themselves to be associated with them and they dole out all kinds of benefits like cash awards and free land - all public assets, of course. Sania Mirza got a ton from the Andhra Pradesh government after she won Grand Slam titles, when she didn't need it any more. But no one wants to support developing youngsters because they think it might be a wasted investment. People want to invest in blue chips instead of promising startups.

This mentality, and other short-comings of the Indian "system" (like disorganization, jealousy, regionalism) is an enduring roadblock to the growth of new champions. Cricket and, more recently, badminton have been the exceptions.
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by knarayen »

jai_in_canada wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:25 pm
S_K_S wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:58 pm
rajitghosh wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 pm Then Yuki should apply to Jet Airways or Air India for free travel. Both these airlines, if we count their partner airlines have good network outside India. It would save him a lot of money.
If only it was so easy. I think it's all about who you know and having the right connections.
Unfortunately, in India, it is still very regionally parochial! When Sania Mirza was still in her mid-teens she got excellent support from GVK Industries ... primarily because she was from Hyderabad and GVK was (is) based in Hyderabad. I believe that she still continues to be a brand ambassador for GVK. Still much kudos to GVK for supporting her, for I believe she may have struggled to achieve the success that she did if it weren't for that support. Mind you, her Dad being a journo, and thus being well-connected, also likely helped her gain a lot of support.

And unfortunately, in India, only AFTER an athlete has achieved some success politicians fall all over themselves to be associated with them and they dole out all kinds of benefits like cash awards and free land - all public assets, of course. Sania Mirza got a ton from the Andhra Pradesh government after she won Grand Slam titles, when she didn't need it any more. But no one wants to support developing youngsters because they think it might be a wasted investment. People want to invest in blue chips instead of promising startups.

This mentality, and other short-comings of the Indian "system" (like disorganization, jealousy, regionalism) is an enduring roadblock to the growth of new champions. Cricket and, more recently, badminton have been the exceptions.
Well said. I think Yuki tried crowdfunding as well - and that went nowhere I'm assuming? But RamK and Sumit seem to be better funded?
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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by knarayen »

PKBasu wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:35 am

.....In badminton, Gopichand and Prakash had world-class achievements, so they were a bit more able to gather in the sponsors. In tennis, AITA has been awful and hasn't helped the players ever; but with the exception of Sania (who found GVK before GVK became a household name in national infrastructure building), none of our other tennis players have been able to find a solid sponsor who believed in them. (Yuki had the Mahindras for a bit, but got injured immediately, which is a killer of such relationships; similarly with Karan and Dewan Housing.......)
But we had Bhupathi and Paes who had world-class achievements too. Gopi and Prakash could work together as a team to move Indian Badminton forward, and Bhupathi-Paes could not do the same? Somdev points to Gopi as a model that can be replicated in tennis (see his interview in his player page), and yet with his long association with Bhupathi and Paes, and with Somdev and Bhupathi's US-based education ( I presume business-related), he can't apply his own medicine to himself, and they cant get a hedge fund started in India to fund Indian players at the right level? Am I missing something here? Perhaps these guys too are small-minded and riven by internecine jealousies after all? Why blame the AITA only for this (and I am not a great fan of AITA either as my earlier posts would show)?

Bhindra, Dravid and others have started a multi-sports academy in Bangalore - a number of new sport-based academies have sprung up. Tendulkar is also committing himself to advance sports-based thinking in India - see his facebook page. All these are great steps as well.

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Re: Australian Open 2018

Post by prasen9 »

I thought that too but did not say it. Somdev's saying we need more Gopis is like mine saying that we need more Gopis. None of us are going to do the hard work to be a Gopi in a sport. The difference is that I do not have the skills and the experience. Somdev has. He is in essence saying that we need more Gopis and he is not interested or good enough to be a Gopi. He wants someone else be a Gopi because he can't do it or does not think he can do it. I am a Somdev fan, but this is what he is saying.

I don't know what SRT is doing or not but Dravid is an exemplar. He is working hard to improve the talent from the U-19 level. He has the pedigree to put his hat in as a national coach, which is a lot more glamorous than the U-19 coach. But I think at the U-19 level you can make a fundamental difference. We'll see if that reaps benefits in 5-6 years.

:Offtopic: Maybe a kind moderator will move all this to some general sports chit-chat thread?
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