Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by PKBasu »

:Offtopic: Tagore's poetry is peerlessly lyrical. Michael's uses dense language (whether in Bengali or English); I'm not sure that makes it better! In fact, I'm sure it doesn't (but that's my opinion)!!
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by Omkara »

I just think it's two different styles. Why better or worse...

And given the thread this is being discussed, Michael did better on his home turf .....
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

Absolutely agree with PKB. If I had to choose I would choose Tagore and I would choose to read Nazrul before Michael. Yes, Michael's language was dense but beautiful poetry indeed. He brought the sonnet to Bangla.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by Omkara »

Michael also introduced free verse (amritakhar Chanda)
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

Right. And he was a fabulous playright. Megnad Bod Kabyo.

Now some of this needs to go to the LP page/topic and some to who knows where. :-) Article on the life and loves of MMD
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by PKBasu »

Omkara wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:43 am I just think it's two different styles. Why better or worse...

And given the thread this is being discussed, Michael did better on his home turf .....
:Offtopic:
I presume, by "better on his home turf", you mean that Michael was better at English than Tagore -- and on this I can agree whole-heartedly. I wish Tagore hadn't translated Gitanjali and Noibeddo into English, and let others do it. "Chitto jetha bhoyoshunno" probably was one of his better translations ("Where the mind is without fear"), but the lyricism of most of the other poems are lost in his translation.

Here is one of Michael's best English poems, "King Porus -- A Legend of Old":

I
Loudly the midnight tempest sang,
Ah! it was thy dirge, fair Liberty!
And clouds in thundering accents roar'd
Unheeded warning from on high;
The rain in darksome torrents fell,
Hydaspes' waves did onward sweep,
Like fiery passion's headlong flow,
To meet th' awaken'd calling deep;
The lighting flashed bright- dazzling, like
Fair women's glance from 'neath her veil;
And on the heaving, troubled air,
There was a moaning sound of wail
But, Ind! thy unsuspecting sons
Did heedless slumber,- while the foe
Came in stealthy step of death,
-Came as the tiger, noiseless, slow,
To close at once its victim's breath!
Alas! they knew not ‘midst this gloom’
This war of elements was burst,
-Like to an earthquake in the womb
Of a volcano,- deep and low-
A deadlier storm-on them to burst!

II
‘I was morn’ the Lord of Day
From gold Sumero's palace bright,
Look'd his own sweet clime,
But lo! the glorious flag,
To which the world in awe once bow'd,
There in defiance waved
On India's gales- triumphant-proud!-
Then, rose the dreadful yell,
-Then lion-king, each warrior brave
Rushed on the coming foe,
To strike for freedom -or the grave!
Oh Death! upon thy gory altar
What blood-libations freely flow'd!
Oh Earth! on that bright morn, what thousands
Rendered to thee the dust they ow'd!
But ‘fore the Macedonians driven’
Fell India's hardy sons,
-Proud mountain oaks by thunders riven,
-That for their country's freedom bled-
And made on gore their glorious bed!

III
But dauntlessly there stood
King Porus, towering ‘midst the foe’
Like a Himala-peak
With its eternal crown of snow:
And on his brow did shine
The jewell'd regal diadem.
His milk-white elephant
Was deck'd with many a brilliant gem.
He reck'd not of the phalanx
That ‘round him closed-but nobly fought
And like the angry winds that blow
And lofty mountain pines lay low,
Amidst them dreadful havoc wrought,
And thinn'd his crown and country's foe!
The hardiest warriors, at his deeds,
Awe-struck quail'd like wind-shaken reeds:
They dared not look upon his face,
They shrank before his burning gaze,
For in his eye the hero shone
That feared not death;-but high-alone
A being as if of lightning made,
That scorch'd all that is gazed upon-
Trampling the living with the dead.

IV
Th' immortal Thund'rer's son,
Astonish'd eyed the heroic king;
He saw him bravely charge
Like his dread father,- fulmining:
-Tho' thousands' round him closed,
He stood - as stand the ocean rock
Amdist the lashing billows
Unmoved at their fierce thoundering shock.
But when th' Emathian conqueror
Saw that with gaping wounds he bled,
‘Desist-desist!’-he cried-
‘Such noble blood should not be shed!’
Then a herald was sent
Where bleeding and faint,
Stood, ‘midst the dying’ and the dead,
King Porus,- boldly, undismayed:
‘Hail, brave and warlike prince!’
Thy generous rival bids thee cease-
Behold! there flies the flag,
That lulls dread war, and wakens peace!'

V
Like to a lion chain'd,
That tho' faint-bleeding-stands in pride-
With eyes, where unsubdued
Yet flash'd the fire-looks that defied;
King Porus boldly went
Where ‘midst the gay and flittering crowd’
Sat god-like Alexander;
While ‘round’ Earth's mightiest monarchs bow'd.
King Porus was no slave;
he stooped not - bent not there his knee,
-But stood, as stands an oak,
In Himalayan majesty.
‘The mighty king of Macedon:’
‘Ev’n as a King,’ replied
In royal pride, Ind's haughty son.
The conqu’ ror pleas’d,
Him forth releas’d:
Thus India's crown was lost and won.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by PKBasu »

Michael wrote in grand, epic verse -- introducing many of the fads of the English literary scene to India (Bengal). His Meghnad Bodh Kabyo is a mini-epic about Ravana's heroic son Indrajit, who was slain by Lakshman allegedly against the tenets of war. For those interested, the whole grand epic is available here: https://bn.wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%A6%A ... D%E0%A6%AF
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by Omkara »

Thanks for the link PKB. I feel really lucky that a part of the poem was in my class 12 school curriculum.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

Yep. Mine too. Brings back memories of school days.
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Re: ITF India Futures (4 weeks) March 2021

Post by prasen9 »

Not to beat a dead horse but this seems to be one of the worst shows we have had in a home futures event. Maybe we used to have such things a decade or two ago but in the last decade, this is one of the worst.
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Re: ITF India Futures (4 weeks) March 2021

Post by Atithee »

This may be the worst, but I don’t think it is unusual. I know I’m in minority here. I’ve followed this aspect very closely over the years. In fact, somehow the draws put Indians against Indians in early rounds at a highly “suspicious” rate in home tournaments. But, I may be wrong here. Anyway, I don’t see any (at least strong) evidence that Indian players play above their ranking at home. If anything, our players have better wins abroad at least as frequently or no less.

Mods—Please move this to the original discussion about this aspect.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by sameerph »

Atithee, if you think round of mens futures in India are not exceptional and we always used to have these type of results in futures in India, have a look at these stats.

No futures were held in 2020 ( due to covid) and 2019 ( due to ITF scaping ATP points in that year).

2018- Out of 4 futures, 3 titles were won by Indians. (Arjun,Prajnesh, VSP)
2017- Indians won all 8 titles of futures held in that year- ( Mukund 2, Balaji 2, Prajnesh 2, Yuki and Sumit 1 each)
2016- Indians won 5 of the 6 titles that year ( Vishnu 3, Sanam 1, Prajnesh 1)
2015- As many as 19 futures were held in India that year of which 15 titles were won by Indians.

So, in these 4 years, Indians won 32 out of 36 futures held.

Do you need any more proof that the current round of futures are an exception and Indians are doing badly compared to earlier years ?
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

From this bunch Yuki went into top-100 and Sumit into top 150. I can guarantee from the bunch who is playing now none will reach 150 although I would love it if they did.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by Atithee »

Sameer, if you cannot do it for a longer period, I’ll do it some day. I may be wrong, I admit that I’ve an impression not based on a rigorous data analysis. Take all the results and just calculate the number of times our players have beaten higher ranked players in total. The data is all here. It is not about winning the tournament. Even the winners, were they the highest ranked player and they just did as good as their rank would imply? Or, did they beat 2-3 higher ranked opponents on the way to the title?

My argument started with a statement players perform better than their ranking at home, which I called a preemptive excuse when our fancied players lose abroad. I would like to check if the same holds true in India for Indian players.

A simple null and alternate hypothesis testing can provide a statistical answer.

I am not sure what point of my assertion is unclear.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

I don't think your assertion is unclear. It just requires time and effort to do it. It may very well be that our players are over-ranked. It would be interesting to see the difference between our player's ELO ratings and their ATP ratings. That would sort-of show whether our players are over-ranked. The ELO rating is strictly based on whom you beat and what their ratings were. So, hard to be over-ranked there because you got points from tournaments in India where typically people did not show up and you got easy points.

Anecdotally, it seems to me that the UTR rating is much better than the ATP rankings in predicting who will win and who will lose. But, I think Sanjay or Dinesh follows that more. Maybe someone has done a comparison. We should look at our ELO and UTR ratings to see if we are overranked.

Over-ranked people will lose to lower-ranked players. At home. And abroad.
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