Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

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Re: Sumit Nagal thread

Post by rajitghosh »

Home advantage used to be a big factor when tournaments were played on grass case in point being Vijay Amritraj and Leander Paes. Vijay won the Indian Open 4 times and Lee won quite a few Challenger singles on grass. Som and Sania also took advantage of the tour events in India. Can't recall anybody else.
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Re: Sumit Nagal thread

Post by sameerph »

Atithee wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:58 pm I didn’t want to say more, but I started the argument, so please allow me to make a request, Sameer. In your research, I simply would like you to take all Indian players (not just top 5) and tabulate a win loss ratio when the foreign opponent is ranked higher than the Indian player. If home advantage holds, then we should see a lot more Indian players beating their much higher ranked often than not. I hope this makes sense. It’s not about seeding or winning a tournament only or Sania, Yuki, Somdev in isolation. It’s about collective performance of Indian players’ performance at home.
Well, than the best way to do it is analyse all the tournaments held in India for last few years and see how many Indian players beat higher ranked foreign players against how many Indian players lost to lower ranked Indian players and see if the end result is positive or negative.

Will take some to do. Hopefully, we have all the results on this forum itself which will make it easier.

Anyway, this has nothing to do only with Sumit alone. So, will open a new thread for this and keep posting there as and when we get time.
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Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by sameerph »

Moving some of the posts in Sumit's thread on this topic here.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by jai_in_canada »

Where in India is Newport, RI? 😋
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Re: Sumit Nagal thread

Post by PKBasu »

rajitghosh wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:25 pm Home advantage used to be a big factor when tournaments were played on grass case in point being Vijay Amritraj and Leander Paes. Vijay won the Indian Open 4 times and Lee won quite a few Challenger singles on grass. Som and Sania also took advantage of the tour events in India. Can't recall anybody else.
Bizarrely, during the 1980s (when Ramesh Krishnan was in his prime) there was no Indian Open. So he was the one Indian player who conspicuously didn't have the benefit of home tournaments. In Vijay's day, some of the greats would turn up: in 1975, Manuel Orantes (that year's US Open champion, having beaten Connors on clay) lost the Indian Open final to Vijay in Calcutta (in the first tournament played at the new Netaji Indoor stadium, which hosted the world table-tennis championships a few weeks later); Orantes and partner beat the Amritraj brothers in the doubles final. In 1973, Vijay beat veteran Mal Anderson (the 1972 AO finalist, and US champion of 1957) in the final at New Delhi. Tony Roche (FO singles champ in 1966, and a career Grand Slammer in doubles, including Wimbledon in 1974) lost the 1974 Indian Open final (on clay in Mumbai) to Onny Parun of NZ.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

jai_in_canada wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:27 pm Where in India is Newport, RI? 😋
Well, Leander is Bengali. So, that should give you the answer. In West Bengal. Google Maps [Naya Bandar]
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by sameerph »

Haha,

Anyway, starting with 2019 and 2020, there were 3 challengers played in India - Pune and Chennai in 2019 and Bangalore in 2020 and 1 ATP tournament in Pune in 2020.

In Pune ATP - Only Sumit lost to a lower ranked players- 0-1
Bangalore Challenger- 6 Indian won against higher ranked foreign players ( including Saketh win over Karatseve :D , but Sumit and Prajnesh lost to lower ranked players - 6-2 here.
Pune Challenger - 4-2 for our players- Prajnesh lost to a lower ranked player
Chennai Challenger- We went 2-3 here. Sumit lost to a lower ranked player.

So, if we take this 4 big mens events held in 2019 and 2020, we went 12-7 in terms of peforming better than ranking which is pretty good.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by PKBasu »

The Indian national championships (predecessor of the Indian Open) was a very big tournament that attracted world-class participation in the runup to the Australian championship (which used to be played in December then). In 1969, Ilie Nastase (already among the top-10 players in the world, who won the FO in 1973 and USO in 1972, a year in which he also was runner-up at Wimbledon) won the Indian championship, beating Premjit Lall in the final. The following year, Premjit beat Alex Metrevelli (the 1973 Wimbledon runner-up) in the final of the Indian championship. In 1967, Ion Tiriac (the future coach of Boris Becker, and quarterfinalist at the first French Open in 1968) beat Jaidip Mukerjea in the final. In the 1960 final, Ramanathan Krishnan beat Ulf Schmidt of Sweden (ranked #8 in the world by Lance Tingay), while he beat Alan Mills (the future head referee at Wimbledon, and a top-10 player) in 1964.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by PKBasu »

One year, in 1978, the Indian Open was played on outdoor clay courts (at South Club, I think) in Calcutta. And sure enough, the final was an all-French affair, the future FO champion Yannick Noah beating Pascal Portes.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by PKBasu »

prasen9 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:12 pm
jai_in_canada wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:27 pm Where in India is Newport, RI? 😋
Well, Leander is Bengali. So, that should give you the answer. In West Bengal. Google Maps [Naya Bandar]
Naya Bandar notwithstanding, Leander is indeed part Bengali -- descended on his mother's side from the great Bengali poet Michael Madhusudhan Datta. Michael of course had married an Englishwoman, so by definition his progeny would be Anglo-Indians. On his father's side, Vece Paes is of Portuguese descent (from the surname) but undoubtedly with a lot of Bengali blood mixed in over the generations. The Portuguese had a big presence in Bengal (particularly in the port of Chittagong).
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

As an academic and a researcher who has worked in linguistics and ontologies, I must say that this is a interesting question. The followup question would be which ranking. It is quite possible that our ATP rankings are inflated but if you use the ELO ranking or the UTR ranking (not so sure about this one yet), it may be that our players do indeed do better than their rankings at home because they are lower ranked in ELO, which correctly reflects their true abilities. The ATP rankings get inflated because they are getting some cheap points due to people not coming to Indian tournaments (as used to happen in the past).

So, a slightly different question may be: Do Indian tennis players do better at home? That is, do Indian players defeat players at home whom they do not defeat abroad?

We should figure out what exactly we want to answer. The answer may be different based on which ranking we choose and which framing of the question we choose.

Wrt LP, I don't need all that. If you are born and brought up in Kolkata, then you are Bengali. I do not buy into this Bengali/non-Bengali crap. Some of my so-called non-Bengali friends are fluent in Bangla and are pretty much Bengali in their habits and cultural preferences.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by arjun2761 »

I know folks love to do their research and more power to them!

However, does anyone actually think the Indians do better elsewhere compared to India or even the same? Perhaps, Newport, Rhode India may be the exception. However, we can explain that on the grass courts and the Indians succeeding there being serve-and-volleyers such as Vijay and Prakash Amritraj, Leander Paes, RamKumar Ramanathan, and even the Indian genes of Rajeev Ram.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by Atithee »

sameerph wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm Haha,

Anyway, starting with 2019 and 2020, there were 3 challengers played in India - Pune and Chennai in 2019 and Bangalore in 2020 and 1 ATP tournament in Pune in 2020.

In Pune ATP - Only Sumit lost to a lower ranked players- 0-1
Bangalore Challenger- 6 Indian won against higher ranked foreign players ( including Saketh win over Karatseve :D , but Sumit and Prajnesh lost to lower ranked players - 6-2 here.
Pune Challenger - 4-2 for our players- Prajnesh lost to a lower ranked player
Chennai Challenger- We went 2-3 here. Sumit lost to a lower ranked player.

So, if we take this 4 big mens events held in 2019 and 2020, we went 12-7 in terms of peforming better than ranking which is pretty good.
Thank you. Please include or cite futures’ results. That’s when the home advantage should stand out.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by rajitghosh »

PKBasu wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:25 pm
prasen9 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:12 pm
jai_in_canada wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:27 pm Where in India is Newport, RI? 😋
Well, Leander is Bengali. So, that should give you the answer. In West Bengal. Google Maps [Naya Bandar]
Naya Bandar notwithstanding, Leander is indeed part Bengali -- descended on his mother's side from the great Bengali poet Michael Madhusudhan Datta. Michael of course had married an Englishwoman, so by definition his progeny would be Anglo-Indians. On his father's side, Vece Paes is of Portuguese descent (from the surname) but undoubtedly with a lot of Bengali blood mixed in over the generations. The Portuguese had a big presence in Bengal (particularly in the port of Chittagong).
Michael Madhusudan married a Frenchwoman Henrietta, not an Englishwoman. So Leander has French blood in him.
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Re: Do the Indian Tennis players do better than their ranking at home ?

Post by prasen9 »

Leander's mother is Jennifer Paes, whose father is Michael Dutton and mother is Ruby Myrtle Nyss. Here is the connection to Michael Madhusudhan Dutta. Leander's ancestry How much is Bengali, how much Anglo by DNA, who knows at this point. I would have to do a careful genealogy to even get close.

Maybe now someone should lift these posts and move it to the LP thread. We are really going off-topic these COVID days. There is perhaps not enough sports going on to keep us fully busy.
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