ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

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PKBasu
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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by PKBasu » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:10 am

I presume the GOAT argument is well and truly over. Federer sweeps through to the Rogers Cup semifinal, while Nadal was ousted in R3 -- and Federer is almost guaranteed to be #1 by the time the US Open begins if he wins a couple of rounds at Cincinnati next week (although he may well choose not to play there if he wins in Montreal this week).

Federer already has a 16-week lead over Sampras for most weeks at #1 (302). Nadal is in 7th place on the all-time #1 list, at 141 weeks (Lendl is 3rd at 270, followed by Connors at 268, Djokovic at 223 and McEnroe at 170).

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by prasen9 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:16 pm

Whether Federer will go to the USO as a #1 I don't know, but, he will certainly be the favorite. Wrt the GOAT argument assumption, it is indeed amusing to see the desperate assertions by some of his insecure fans. The losing records against not only one but two of his nearest rivals still shines brightly.

With respect to longevity and consistency of excellence over a long period of time, he is peerless. So, extending the # of weeks at #1 is a fantastic achievement, but that does nothing to address his achilles heels.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by fabshab » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:40 pm

Shapovalov is surely the next big thing ....his big run at montreal justifies it
He had already toppled down players ranked #2 #31 #42 #64 on his dream run to semis(he is jus 18)...
He is the guy to watch out
Tough time for us in DC

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by PKBasu » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:22 pm

Head to heads against particular players are pretty meaningless -- as nicely illustrated this week in Montreal. Nadal simply failed to make it to the later rounds, Murray and Djokovic sat it out through injury. As Woody Allen said, 50% of success is simply turning up.

What is desperate about the number of weeks at #1? Federer has been the #1 player for 302 weeks, 16 more than any other player -- and is soon going to extend that lead. Nadal has been #1 for just 141 weeks. He is the greatest clay-courter of all time, but Nadal is not among the greats on any other surface -- grass or hard-courts (and on indoor courts, he is mediocre).
Total number of Slams won, most successive semifinals at Slams, most successive quarter-finals at Slams -- all FAR ahead of the second best.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by PKBasu » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:26 pm

fabshab wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:40 pm
Shapovalov is surely the next big thing ....his big run at montreal justifies it
He had already toppled down players ranked #2 #31 #42 #64 on his dream run to semis(he is jus 18)...
He is the guy to watch out
Tough time for us in DC
He is the next big thing, but we are lucky to be playing him when he is only 18 and not quite as invincible as he will someday be. Yuki did almost as well against him as Nadal!
I'm convinced the next big thing is Sasha Zverev, but Shapovalov will give him great competition soon -- and over the next decade. The Russian expatriates will rule the tennis world, after the era of the Serbo-Croats (Djokovic, Cilic, Raonic, Tomic, following Ivanisevic, Ancic, Ljubicic).

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by Sin Hombre » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:23 pm

This Montreal tournament is probably the worst ATP1000 tournament in a long time - no Djokovic, no Murray, no Wawrinka, no Cilic, no Berdych and the likes of Nishikori, Raonic, Kyrgios all in slumps as they try to return from injuries.

Using this tournament as evidence of GOAT argument being well and truly over is silly.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by arjun2761 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:31 am

Agreed - we didn't need this tournament to figure out the GOAT. :D

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by prasen9 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:42 am

PKBasu wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:22 pm
Head to heads against particular players are pretty meaningless -- as nicely illustrated this week in Montreal. Nadal simply failed to make it to the later rounds, Murray and Djokovic sat it out through injury. As Woody Allen said, 50% of success is simply turning up.
I agree. Anything that Federer could not achieve is pretty meaningless. We should anoint Federer by definition. Then, nobody can argue anything. The tennis dictionaries should define GOAT using one word: Federer. No need for any objective requirements. They are meaningless.
What is desperate about the number of weeks at #1? Federer has been the #1 player for 302 weeks, 16 more than any other player -- and is soon going to extend that lead. Nadal has been #1 for just 141 weeks. He is the greatest clay-courter of all time, but Nadal is not among the greats on any other surface -- grass or hard-courts (and on indoor courts, he is mediocre).
Total number of Slams won, most successive semifinals at Slams, most successive quarter-finals at Slams -- all FAR ahead of the second best.
Who cares about Nadal? My position is that there is no one greatest player of all time. If you want to argue my position, argue that. I never said that Nadal is the greatest player of all time. So, let's keep the straw-men out.

There is nothing desperate about the achievements of Federer. He is one of the greatest players of all time. It does not make him the GOAT either.

What is desperate is the attempts to keep claiming that the argument about the GOAT is settled by decree because Federer did well in one tournament. This tournament does not change that he is a great player.

My position is simple. If you want to claim someone as undoubtedly the greatest player of all time, (a) that person has to have a winning record against all players that he or she has played ignoring the small sample size records, and (b) that person has to have the highest winning % of matches played again after a qualification # of matches to separate the small sample size randomness. And possibly a bunch of other metrics. In any individual sport, these are reasonable metrics to measure undoubted GOATs. If anyone fails to achieve these, then he or she is not the undoubted GOAT. I am comfortable living in a colorful world where there is no one GOAT.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by Sin Hombre » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:19 pm

And Sascha Zverev inflicts a straight set beatdown on Federer. Kind of an indictment of the draw that Roger has had so far in this tournament; and how premature PKB's assertions were. I do think Federer is suffering from some kind of niggle after playing too much tennis for his age.

Up to #3 in the race for Zverev. If he can figure out best-of-5, he will be #1 by this time next year.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by fabshab » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:47 am

Zverev would sureĺy hit no.1 soon

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by PKBasu » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:17 am

Sasha Zverev may be a contender for GOAT 10-15 years from now, but I was not asserting that the Montreal tournament somehow changes the argument about Federer's position as the greatest tennis player of all time. The only thing it contributes to is the likelihood that Federer will soon be #1 in the world again -- and will extend his lead (currently 16 weeks) over Sampras for the longest period as #1. Nadal has been #1 for a mere 141 weeks. (If only Sin Hombre would read what is written, rather than give a spin/implication of his own, he wouldn't need to go off on a tangent…).

If winning 19 Slam titles (4 more than anyone else), 29 Slam finals (more than anyone else), more consecutive Slam finals than anyone (10), more consecutive Slam semifinals than anyone (22), more consecutive Slam quarterfinals than anyone (36) is not enough, he also has more weeks at #1 than anyone else -- and that lead is about to be considerably extended.

(As I have said previously, there is a small asterisk against the Slam titles record, if one includes the Pro Slams during the era when professionals weren't allowed to play the official Slams; including those would place Federer on par with Laver at 19 Slams, but four behind the all-time leader Ken Rosewall. To my mind, the only contender for GOAT ahead of Federer is Rosewall, but not many would agree with me, since Ken made four Wimbledon finals -- the last when he was 39 -- but never won the Big W title).

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by PKBasu » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:48 am

So Nadal WILL indeed be #1 for at least 3 weeks (including the two weeks of the US Open), because Federer has pulled out of Cincinnati :oops: -- and will thus get to narrow the 161-week gap between him and Federer for weeks at #1.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by Sin Hombre » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:54 am

Talking of pointless records, Nadal now sets a new record of longest time between first and last time at #1 at a little over 9 years.

Federer, when/if he gets back to #1 will beat it by a distance.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by prasen9 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:48 am

PKBasu wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:48 am
So Nadal WILL indeed be #1 for at least 3 weeks (including the two weeks of the US Open), because Federer has pulled out of Cincinnati :oops: -- and will thus get to narrow the 161-week gap between him and Federer for weeks at #1.
It does not matter. Federer will have a huge lead over Nadal and others. Nadal is possibly not the nearest contender wrt # of weeks at #1 among the current players. I think Djokovic has more weeks at #1 than Nadal. A few weeks more or less by Federer does not do anything to strengthen or weaken his record. It will stay phenomenal.

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Re: ATP Tennis/Non-India Davis Cup

Post by SaniaFan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:08 pm

GOAT is not an official title. Each one of us can have our own GOAT. PKB has Federer. prasen has none. Where is the issue?

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