Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

A forum to discuss Indian hockey and the disarray it is in despite the promising new professional PHL series.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
ssp
Member
Member
Posts: 3708
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by ssp »

Squad for the 2016 Champions Trophy has been announced:
P.R. SREEJESH (Captain), VIKAS DAHIYA, PRADEEP MOR, V.R. RAGHUNATH, KOTHAJIT SINGH, SURENDER KUMAR, HARMANPREET SINGH, DANISH MUJTABA, CHINGLENSANA SINGH KANGUJAM, MANPREET SINGH, S.K. UTHAPPA, DEVINDER SUNIL WALMIKI, HARJEET SINGH, TALWINDER SINGH, MANDEEP SINGH, S.V. SUNIL (Vice – Captain),AKASHDEEP SINGH. NIKKIN THIMMAIAH

I understand that the selectors want to rotate the players and introduce some new blood, but they keep choosing 5-6 players who have had 2-3 yrs of exposure and shown zero development. I'm talking about Danish, Uthappa, Chinglensana, Mandeep & Akashdeep. In addition we have got the 'greater sloth' Raghunath replacing Rupinder Pal. That is a step backwards. Do the selectors actually watch the matches or study the videos? :mad:

There is no new player apart from Pardeep Mor. Whilst I'm pleased to see Harmanpreet, Harjeet & Surender retained, why wasn't Affan Youssuff or maybe Varun Kumar or Gurinder Singh given a chance?

I fear for our results in this tournament. I expect thrashings from Australia, Germany , Belgium and GB. Our only chance of a result will be Korea. Our midfield and attack looks very weak.
sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 32794
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London (June 10-17)

Post by sameerph »

Opening a separate thread to discuss this and will shift SSP's post on Indian team here.

6 teams will be playing here - Australia, Germany, Great Britain, Belgium, Korea and India. It will be a round robin format to start with and the classification matches later.

Surprised that there if no Netherlands here.
gautam
Member
Member
Posts: 798
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:39 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by gautam »

SSP though I appreciate your honest and critical analysis of the Indian team but there is too negativity in your analysis of the Indian team. I agree the selection is not the best but at the same time there is little scope for experimentation as the experience of playing on the big stage would come in crucial in Olympics. At least with regular players we can hope of avoiding the last minute madness, the area where we have had little improvement over the last few years. Our players struggle with mental strength unlike the foreign counter parts who can adjust to the senior level with relative ease.

Hence, I understand what Oltman is trying to do and let's see the positives, we have come close to beating the likes of Belgium, Germany and GB in the past one year and if not this Olympics at least in the next one we can hope for a podium. I would go with the same set of players as the Olympics is too close for experimentation and irrespective of the result, I would overhaul the whole team upon the completion of the games.
ssp
Member
Member
Posts: 3708
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by ssp »

SSP though I appreciate your honest and critical analysis of the Indian team but there is too negativity in your analysis of the Indian team.
I accept you have a different opinion to mine. That's fine.
we have come close to beating the likes of Belgium, Germany and GB in the past one year and if not this Olympics at least in the next one we can hope for a podium. I would go with the same set of players as the Olympics is too close for experimentation and irrespective of the result,
We lost badly to GB and Belgium in the Antwerp HWL in 2015 when we took more than the usual number of weak players. Australia handed out 4 goal beatings in the Azlan Shah cup last month. Our selection for the latter tournament was stronger and the field weaker (than the CT). That's why I expect bad defeats at the CT. I'm sorry, if all this comes across as too negative.

My criticisms of the 5-6 players are nothing new. They have repeatedly let the team down (lost the ball continuously, given away PCs, not tracked back or mis trapped almost every time) despite playing 3-4 or more years of playing international hockey (Danish has been in the squad since 2010 CWG) and have shown no real improvement. Are they suddenly going to step up now?? As for collapses at the end of matches, most of these guys have done this repeatedly and precisely because of this type of madness, we should be replacing them and not rewarding them.

We took a fairly experienced team to the 2012 Olympics and the results were horrible. Admittedly the coach wasn't great but the selections were pretty poor. We could possibly carry 1-2 weaklings, but 5/6 is way too many, especially as we have better players that we continue to ignore (Gurbaj, Affan Yousseff, Gurjinder, Gurinder, Lalit, Amir Khan). In my opinion, our selectors are incompetent (who knows what factors are involved in the selection process) and Oltmans probably has no say in the make up of the team. I suspect, this was one of the difficulties that Walsh and Van Ass weren't happy about. I suspect they wanted to make changes but the HI just would not accept giving control of selections.

I hope you have also noted my posts that praise good performances or laud the better players. You can check the 2014 WC thread, where we came 9th, but I was encouraged by how the team played and said so.
sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 32794
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by sameerph »

I agree with you SSP. Earlier I had also thought that your posts were a bit negative. But, later on after closely watching some of the matches, I realised that your criticism of a few players is entirely valid and your analysis was spot on. You were also gracious enough to change your opinion on players who shows real improvement like Dharamveer.

That is fair enough.

Unfortunately, I fail to understand how selectors are not able to spot those weak players which we as arm chair critics are able to do.
ssp
Member
Member
Posts: 3708
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by ssp »

Thank you Sameer for your comments.

Gurjinder was another player I wasn't sure about, but he worked hard on his fitness and put in some good performances. Somehow, he is out of the team now and Raghunath is in. I was sceptical about Birendra too, but soon realised I had got him wrong. Chandi was another one that improved. Rupinder Pal too (although he does have some mad moments).

However, there are some players that are too weak on the ball, too upright, leave the ball too far from their stick, hack rather than tackle, are too slow, don't hassle the opposition ball carrier, mis trap (even on the open stick side), get green and yellow cards. Most countries would have replaced them within 10-20 matches or asked them to go back to the domestic leagues and seen if they had improved on their flaws.

The problem is that once our guys are in the national squad, they don't play much competitive hockey apart from international tournaments. They are always attending camps, where nothing much happens.....apart from 'working on some grey area and rectifying mistakes' (!!!). I doubt if the selectors are present continuously at the camps.

We have just held the nationals, yet none of the international players participated! What is the logic behind that? At the HIL Affan Yousseff and Amir Khan looked way better than the likes of Mandeep and Akashdeep. Really can't understand what the selectors are doing.
User avatar
arjun2761
Member
Member
Posts: 7332
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:26 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: US
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by arjun2761 »

sameerph wrote: Unfortunately, I fail to understand how selectors are not able to spot those weak players which we as arm chair critics are able to do.
I think that's because we are mostly unbiased. The selectors can also probably see the flaws but often have favorites if they know the players or perhaps there is other politics involved. Also, there does not seem to be the negative consequences for the selectors and officials if the team doesn't do well. Typically, only the coach gets sacked, so he is the only one who is generally motivated solely by taking players that can help him win.

I wonder if we should replace the selectors at the same time when we sack a coach to better align their interests with the team winning.
sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 32794
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by sameerph »

It starts today in London with our match against defending champions Germany at 4 pm local time.

These are the dates of our fixtures here -

June 10: vs Germany,
June 11: vs Great Britain,
June 13: vs Belgium,
June 14: vs South Korea,
June 16: vs Australia

Interesting all of India's matches are at same time i.e 4 pm local time, 8.30 pm India time. Looks like they are trying to catch TV audiences in India.
sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 32794
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by sameerph »

We lead 2-1 at half time against Germany with goals from Raghunath & Mandeep . Must we have looked pretty good so far in defense & attack. Hope they keep it up in second half.
ssp
Member
Member
Posts: 3708
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by ssp »

We are 2-1 up at half time. Germany have created several chances but we don't look too bad at all. Our tactics seem to be: absorb all the pressure and break at speed. This match could go either way as our marking still seems a bit lax and sometimes the Germans have easy access into our D. Far fewer silly errors and being caught in possession so far. Let's hope we keep up this intensity for another 30 mins.
ssp
Member
Member
Posts: 3708
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by ssp »

3-2 now following of a period of madness from umpire (wrongly calling a foul and green card against us) and then Manpreet's over excitable play in giving the ball away and then committing a stupid foul for a PC which resulted in a goal.

Now we have a yellow from Talwinder. What the hell is wrong with the discipline?? :damn:

Another horrible tackle and we concede another PC. Losing the plot. We need to somehow survive till the 4th quarter.

Somehow we kept our 3-2 lead, but so many German chances because we played very poorly in the last 10 mins of that quarter. Decision making was awful. When we are down to 10 and leading by 2 goals, why not just keep the ball and slow the pace down??

PS conceded. So 3-3 likely. I'm hoping we can survive the remaining 3 mins to get a draw. Sort of knew we couldn't hold on to win. Can we hold on for a draw?? Looking difficult

Finishes 3-3. Germany were really strong from about the 35th min. We were under pressure for long periods and Sreejesh was magnificent. Surender too, made some great tackles, but a few of our guys just looked a bit tentative- maybe lacking confidence?
User avatar
PKBasu
Member
Member
Posts: 36869
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: New Delhi / Kolkata
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by PKBasu »

I couldn't watch the game live, but managed to catch the key snippets/highlights. The second goal, via a brilliant run by SV Sunil, who passed on the run to Mandeep -- who flicked it in -- was truly superb. Harmanpreet's PC conversion (for the third goal) was brilliant and precise.

But we shouldn't have squandered a 3-1 lead -- an old affliction of Indian hockey teams.

That said (and forgetting for a moment that we led 1-0, 2-1 and 3-1), it is still quite satisfying to see an Indian hockey team come away with a 3-3 draw against the defending Champions Trophy champions. Competing on even terms with the best teams in the world has been such a rarity in the past 40 years. Indian hockey could actually be seriously back!
User avatar
arjun2761
Member
Member
Posts: 7332
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:26 pm
Please enter the middle number: 1
Location: US
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by arjun2761 »

Great result to tie 3-3. Hopefully, this result will give us confidence to play even better. Hoping for a top-3 finish in the CT which is something we've only achieved once before...
sameerph
Moderators
Moderators
Posts: 32794
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:26 pm
Antispam: No
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: MUMBAI
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by sameerph »

Yes, Germany were all over us in last 20-25 mins or so and got it back from 1-3 to 3-3. At least we did not concede the last minute goal which I had feared.

In the end 3-3 result would be a fair reflection of the way the teams played, I think.

Generally, we are poor starters and always end up losing the first or even second game on a tour and than end up to do all the catching up. In that context this is the best I have seem our team play in a first match although they starting faltering in the end.

I think young Harmanpreet and Surender Kumar are great additions to the defense and should be persisted with till Rio. Sreejesh and Sunil were great too in goal keeping and attack.
ssp
Member
Member
Posts: 3708
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Re: Champions trophy Hockey 2016, London

Post by ssp »

Korea were under even more pressure than us but came away with a 2-0 win over Belgium. How did they manage this while we couldn't hang on? Quite a bit of luck helped but the Koreans defended with flat sticks and stayed low, where as our guys gave away too many 'avoidable' PCs with rash and unnecessary tackles. Korea also passed their way out of defence better than us and eventually wore the Belgians down by the 4th quarter.

This is an impressive win for the Koreans as they have come with a young team and Belgium are missing only 2-3 top players.

Going back to our game, we need to control our emotions a lot better, especially when 2 goals up. When we needed to keep possession, we resorted to hurried aerials and committed silly fouls all over the pitch. We still lose concentration when marking and start ball watching which resulted in acres of space when the Germans transferred the ball across the pitch at pace. One of my favourite youngsters, Harjeet did not have a great game, but I hope he doesn't lose confidence and gives his best in the remaining matches.

The positives: we denied (the usual) easy entries into our D by simply defending from the front (how many times have I moaned that our front 3 guys do not create any meaningful press??) and getting bodies behind the ball quickly. Sreejesh was just outstanding as was Sunil and Surender.
Post Reply