Football: Indian National Team news ...

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by prasen9 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:40 am

You are right that the first 11 would not change much but I certainly think we could get some depth.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by Sin Hombre » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:45 am

prasen9 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:40 am
You are right that the first 11 would not change much but I certainly think we could get some depth.
Danny Batth would instantly be our best player.

One has to keep in mind that most of the best PIOs/NRIs have already been capped like
Neil Taylor (Wales, Bengali mom)
Luciano Narsingh (Netherlands, Indian grandparents)
Harmeet Singh (Norway, Punjabi parents)
Rhys Williams (Aus, Indian mom)

If rules were to ever change, we would have to start with the younger kids like Dhanda and such.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by jaydeep » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:05 am

Good news ... Stephen Constantine wishes granted as our football team has got the official confirmation to participate in the upcoming Asian Games in Jakarta.

Indian football team gets official clearance to play in Asian Games

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by srini » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:27 am

No passengers for Asian games huh ?? Football fever is high during world cup even in India, and the timing of Asian games could have been used to capture imagination by sending team..

https://indianexpress.com/article/sport ... s-5240957/

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by jayakris » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:49 pm

This was sad. Absolutely sad. Come on! .... But what can we do? It's their rules, and strictly by rules, a team or individual who is not in the Asian top-10 probably shouldn't be sent. But if there was ever a case to break the rule, it was this. Now, if IOA has been breaking the rule for others, then I will be pissing mad.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by arjun2761 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:16 pm

It's probably OK to focus on potential results and prevent bloating of the contingent with folks who have no hopes of a medal. Football teams are large and would add a lot of folks to our contingent. Despite their higher ranking, our women are quite poor at the Asian level and routinely lose by big margins (sometimes double digit) to the Koreas, China etc.

They should definitely look to send a U-23 team to compete in Europe during the summer months. They may well gain more from such a tour than playing the Asian Games.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by prasen9 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:35 am

We are not that short of money. We should send anyone who qualifies and forget about these. The reason is that sometimes upcoming players or teams need the exposure and in some sports that exposure is not there at all because there are not very many meets. Playing a young player even though she may not be in the top 10 may be a good investment for the future. Or at least, allow the athletes to go at own cost. I think all sports now have some qualifying criteria or quotas. So, Tom, Dick, and Harry or Ram, Shyam, Jadu and Madhu cannot go to the Asian Games. Let's say someone is a national champion in an Asian Games sport. Send that person, I say.

When this rule was made, it was made primarily looking at the embarassment at the Olympics. We used to send a huge contingent and come back with nothing. At least in the Asian Games, we will win a lot of medals. So, letting a few more people get the exposure is not a bad idea.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by prasen9 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:35 am

We are not that short of money. We should send anyone who qualifies and forget about these. The reason is that sometimes upcoming players or teams need the exposure and in some sports that exposure is not there at all because there are not very many meets. Playing a young player even though she may not be in the top 10 may be a good investment for the future. Football has many other tournaments. However, the Asian Games provides a real competitive environment where some of the teams are "world" class (read Japan, Korea), and it does not need to be one versus the other. You can go to the Asian Games and play friendlies in Europe.

Or at least, allow the athletes to go at own cost. I think all sports now have some qualifying criteria or quotas. So, Tom, Dick, and Harry or more accurately, Ram, Shyam, Jadu and Madhu cannot go to the Asian Games. Let's say someone is a national champion in an Asian Games sport. Send that person, I say.

When this rule was made, I supported it. It was made primarily in reaction to our embarassment at the Olympics and because of a huge waste of government money. We used to send a huge contingent and come back with nothing. At least in the Asian Games, we will win a lot of medals. So, letting a few more people get the exposure is not a bad idea. With our sporting progress and economic progress, we should be willing to pay a bit more and let people participate as long as they are not going to totally embarrass the nation.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by srini » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:56 am

jayakris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:49 pm
But if there was ever a case to break the rule, it was this.
IOA is sending teams for sambo, pencak silat, kurash and sepak takraw because our teams probably finished under the number bracket in the previous edition of Asian games.
https://www.dailyo.in/sports/football-f ... 25301.html
I hope you heard of those sports.I would think its common sense to put weightage for each sport (assign a decimal number based on how global the sport is) and then also take the standing in the previous games, multiply that weightage with the standing then we can arrive at an unbiased rule to be deciding who goes to Games.Global appeal for a sport should mandatorily be factored in for sending teams, otherwise consideration of only standing is too simplistic rule.
jayakris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:49 pm
Now, if IOA has been breaking the rule for others, then I will be pissing mad.
Of course they are breaking this rule for several teams based on if any federation members of that sport are part of IOA. What else can we expect from 'the WORM Batra'
https://indianexpress.com/article/sport ... s-5249257/

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by prasen9 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:02 pm

Weighting it by the sports' popularity is not unbiased. It is biased wrt popularity.

If the objective is winning medals, then going by the rule that exists is fine. Popularity does not help any in earning medals. This is a pure ROI outlook.

Personally, I want the football team to go though maybe at own cost.

Of course, breaking the rule for one sport and not for another is biased.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by arjun2761 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:36 pm

Popularity should be an important element in any decision making.

After all winning medals doesn't mean anything beyond lifting the pride and esteem of a country in the sports field. Clearly, even less success in a more popular sport also accomplishes the same goal. For example, winning a hockey gold will get more coverage and excitement than most other golds. In an orthogonal example, qualifying for the world cup soccer could be perceived as more of an achievement than winning lots of gold medals at the Asiad level.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by prasen9 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:46 pm

arjun2761 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:36 pm
Popularity should be an important element in any decision making.

After all winning medals doesn't mean anything beyond lifting the pride and esteem of a country in the sports field. Clearly, even less success in a more popular sport also accomplishes the same goal. For example, winning a hockey gold will get more coverage and excitement than most other golds. In an orthogonal example, qualifying for the world cup soccer could be perceived as more of an achievement than winning lots of gold medals at the Asiad level.
If it is "by definition" then there is no argument. One can define whatever subjective criterion for your cause.

The objective criteria for the Games is winning medals. That's it. There is nothing beyond that. The Games outline certain criteria by which the medals should be won. The government is going (barring the nepotism) by the criteria that the Game has outlined. Now, to estimate the probability of winning the medals, they have set another criterion. We could argue that this probability estimation can be improved by making the criteria for selection better (for example considering recent form/ranking, taking multiple rankings and averaging, taking head-to-head scores, etc.). But popularity has no role to play in achieving that objective.

Anyone can define whatever subjective criterion they may want but that remains subjective and extraneous to the objective set up by the Games' organizers. I am not interested in arguing against people saying apples are better than oranges. Whatever.

For the sake of fairness, especially in a country like India where nepotism and corruption is rampant, I would want the criterion to be as objective as possible and not one where anyone can argue apples are better and make a push to buy apples and not oranges.

I would want the football team to go to gain experience. But, if it is a choice between the two, and say a wrestler says that they have not too many international competitions and even though he or she does not have a chance here, this exposure will place him to do well in an world championship or Olympic in a few years, I would choose the wrestler over the football team, popularity be damned.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by kujo » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:33 pm

jayakris wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:15 am

Actually, things just changed. FIFA announced yesterday that they are changing the ranking system. And they are going to ELO!!!!

Revision of the FIFA / Coca-Cola World Ranking (From FIFA)

That is the only thing that FIFA has released on it, but apparently, they are changing to ELO from right after the world Cup. So, from the July 19th ranking onward, we will be working with that FIFA version of ELO with the points set like in that document.

The key thing about which I am not clear, which the stupid FIFA document does not mention, is the points they will use to start the ELO ratings. Reading between the lines that this system "allows for a smooth transition from the current ranking formula to the new one without displacement of teams in the existing ranking table, " I assume that they will just prime the ELO with the current points. If so, we managed to game the FIFA system the best way (like no other team has) and only need to prove our place up there near the top-100 in our future games.

Hopefully we don't have to worry anymore about the number of friendlies we play etc, and can schedule better teams without worrying. That is the only way we will improve from here on out.
It is good news that FIFA finally is changing their ranking system to be ELO based! Yes, my guess is the same, they will simply use the current points and convert them to ELO points moving forward...

What does this mean when there is one open bracket and two closing brackets!? Can that denominator be zero and you arrive at 1/0?? :-~
We: expected result of the match
We = 1 / 10(-dr/600) + 1)

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by kujo » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:50 pm

We also have a different document from FIFA website that reduce the "I" "Importance of matches" value by a factor of 10! Not sure which one is the latest??...
https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload ... 3v3vy0aqo1


And then FIFA has this problem to address:
https://twitter.com/We_Global/status/10 ... 7403971584

and also from an article: http://www.weglobalfootball.com/2018/06 ... -rankings/
Because there is no multiplier like in the real ELO Rankings, the amount of points teams can earn in a match are mitigated. Because points are mitigated, it makes it that much harder for teams to move up and down the standings. Teams are going to be picking up 5-10 points frequently in matches. There’s a 750 point gap between #1 and #28. Slovakia would have to beat Germany 20 times in a row just to pass them in the rankings. And that’s just if it’s a World Cup Qualifier. If it’s in friendlies, Slovakia would have to beat Germany 50 times to pass them.

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Re: Football: Indian National Team news ...

Post by suresh » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:55 pm

Welcome back kujo.

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